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6/24: "They took offense to it, I guess" Kopech On HBP

cboemmeljr

By cboemmeljr
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Aristotelian Hangout Grand Counsel

Aristotelian

Posted
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35 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I admittedly did not see a flinch or anything that could be construed as the pitcher trying to fake any runner on base to think that he was starting towards home plate in order to catch them off base.

You are right. He has a flinch built into his delivery which is what confused me. In this case it was switching from stretch to windup. MASN provided zero explanation of course. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-michael-kopech-explains-balk-scored-adley-rutschman

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sportsfan8703
sportsfan8703

CWS just poked the bear. Hope we get a bat flip on them Sunday as we’re sweeping them. 

InsideCoroner
InsideCoroner

Kremer hit Josh Harrison with a pitch the day before, and Harrison had to leave the game. It might have been in response to that, even though Kremer’s pitch didn’t seem intentional. Either way, it cos

Aristotelian
Aristotelian

The stolen bases came after, likely in retaliation for Jorge being hit! They were messing with Kopech, and even got him to balk in a run.

spiritof66 Hangout Grand Counsel

spiritof66

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53 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Admittedly in that situation there is no way Adley is trying to steal. But if Mateo is on 1st, that same flinch could easily get him picked off. I'm fine with calling interference if they do it consistently. 

 

If MLB ever limits the number of throws a pitcher can make to a base, it should eliminate balks at the same time. Or maybe limit balks to instances where the pitcher appears to be trying to deceive the batter.

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RZNJ Hangout Grand Counsel

RZNJ

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9 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

If MLB ever limits the number of throws a pitcher can make to a base, it should eliminate balks at the same time. Or maybe limit balks to instances where the pitcher appears to be trying to deceive the batter.

Most balks have nothing to do with deceiving the runner.   The pitcher is on the mound and as he goes into the stretch the ball falls out of his hand.  That's a balk.  How is that deceiving the runner?    An illegal move to 1B is a balk?  Ok.   A pitcher doesn't stop in the set position?  Ok.    A pitcher twitches as he goes into the set position?   I don't think so.

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spiritof66 Hangout Grand Counsel

spiritof66

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17 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Most balks have nothing to do with deceiving the runner.   The pitcher is on the mound and as he goes into the stretch the ball falls out of his hand.  That's a balk.  How is that deceiving the runner?    An illegal move to 1B is a balk?  Ok.   A pitcher doesn't stop in the set position?  Ok.    A pitcher twitches as he goes into the set position?   I don't think so.

if that's the case, what's the purpose of the balk rule?

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Yes, but these type of balk calls are ridiculous.   I still can't figure out what he did and the rule says part of a balk is "if it's intended to deceive the runner".    If the pitcher coughs you can call a balk.   I think they need to get rid of BS calls like that even if it did benefit us this time.

Getting that run with the Mateo walk and later the Richie Martin RBI was sweet revenge.

Speaking of Richie Martin did anyone mention the idiotic steal of 3B with two out where he made it by a hair.   That's just a stupid, stupid play with 2 outs.

Martin seems to make a number of foolish plays.  

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RZNJ Hangout Grand Counsel

RZNJ

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37 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

if that's the case, what's the purpose of the balk rule?

The purpose is to stop a guy from starting to move towards the plate, stop, and catch the poor runner off of 1B.   That's deception.   If a pitcher tricks/deceives the runner from leaving the base or drifting off the base, thinking the pitcher is delivering the pitch, and then the pitcher picks him off.   That's a balk.   That's really why the balk rule as put in.   Not for some pitcher accidentally dropping a ball while he's rolling it round in his hand.

Ever here of a LHP having a balk move (but it's never called)?   The lefthander's leg appears to be going towards home plate but then he steps towards 1B and makes a throw.    The great pickoff LHP's of all time almost all had that move but it was rarely called.  And yet they'll call a balk on a guy for something that wasn't even intended to deceive or trick the runner.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Most balks have nothing to do with deceiving the runner.   The pitcher is on the mound and as he goes into the stretch the ball falls out of his hand.  That's a balk.  How is that deceiving the runner?    An illegal move to 1B is a balk?  Ok.   A pitcher doesn't stop in the set position?  Ok.    A pitcher twitches as he goes into the set position?   I don't think so.

The wording of the balk rule is weird.  It gives like ten examples of things that are balks, and says nothing about intent.  But then there is a comment: “ Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the ‘intent’ of the pitcher should govern.”   So, doubt in the umpire’s mind about what?   Clearly not doubt about intent.   

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Aristotelian Hangout Grand Counsel

Aristotelian

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1 hour ago, spiritof66 said:

If MLB ever limits the number of throws a pitcher can make to a base, it should eliminate balks at the same time. Or maybe limit balks to instances where the pitcher appears to be trying to deceive the batter.

Baseball has enough rules that rely on the umpire's judgment. Last thing you want to do is let their determination of intent decide the game. 

 

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RZNJ Hangout Grand Counsel

RZNJ

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7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The wording of the balk rule is weird.  It gives like ten examples of things that are balks, and says nothing about intent.  But then there is a comment: “ Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the ‘intent’ of the pitcher should govern.”   So, doubt in the umpire’s mind about what?   Clearly not doubt about intent.   

 Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that we've seen plenty of balk calls that had nothing to do with deceiving the runner.   

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
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7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

 Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that we've seen plenty of balk calls that had nothing to do with deceiving the runner.   

What I’m saying is the purpose of the rule and the wording of the rule don’t line up.   The rule should say something like: “it shall be a balk if the pitcher deliberately deceives the runner by” [and then give the ten examples]. 

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spiritof66 Hangout Grand Counsel

spiritof66

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1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

The purpose is to stop a guy from starting to move towards the plate, stop, and catch the poor runner off of 1B.   That's deception.   If a pitcher tricks/deceives the runner from leaving the base or drifting off the base, thinking the pitcher is delivering the pitch, and then the pitcher picks him off.   That's a balk.   That's really why the balk rule as put in.   Not for some pitcher accidentally dropping a ball while he's rolling it round in his hand.

Ever here of a LHP having a balk move (but it's never called)?   The lefthander's leg appears to be going towards home plate but then he steps towards 1B and makes a throw.    The great pickoff LHP's of all time almost all had that move but it was rarely called.  And yet they'll call a balk on a guy for something that wasn't even intended to deceive or trick the runner.

I get that. That's why I was saying that if you're going to limit the number of pickoff throws, let the pitcher balk as a way to keep the runner in check while speeding up the game a bit.

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InsideCoroner All-Star

InsideCoroner

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1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Right.  I know he made a few the first day or two he was up.   That was a bad gamble last night.

I truly felt that Martin only stole those bases out of solidarity for Mateo. That was really how it seemed to me. It didn’t make sense, but since it (barely) worked you have to think his teammates appreciated it.  But if he had been thrown out, it would have been really dumb. 

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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2 minutes ago, InsideCoroner said:

I truly felt that Martin only stole those bases out of solidarity for Mateo. That was really how it seemed to me. It didn’t make sense, but since it (barely) worked you have to think his teammates appreciated it.  But if he had been thrown out, it would have been really dumb. 

You have to pick your spots.  Revenge is a dish best served cold.   

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