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At what point do you plan on winning?


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You said he would be a top 10 second baseman for the next 6-7 years...He hasn't been a top 10 second baseman in the last 6-7 years, so expecting him to do that in his later years is not realistic.

It doesn't take 6-7 years of a specific performance to predict the next 6-7 years. 6-7 was an estimate on my part. My point was this guy has been a top5-top10 2nd baseman when his elbow wasn't torn in half.

Go to BP and take a look at WARP. Just because Evan Longoria hasn't been a top-5 3B for the last 6-7 years, you don't think he will be for the next 6-7?

Again, I was estimating saying that an extension will get us our money's worth. And isn't that what it's about. Finding the places in the market where we can take advantage financially since we are not the Yankees?

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It doesn't take 6-7 years of a specific performance to predict the next 6-7 years. 6-7 was an estimate on my part. My point was this guy has been a top5-top10 2nd baseman when his elbow wasn't torn in half.

Go to BP and take a look at WARP. Just because Evan Longoria hasn't been a top-5 3B for the last 6-7 years, you don't think he will be for the next 6-7?Again, I was estimating saying that an extension will get us our money's worth. And isn't that what it's about. Finding the places in the market where we can take advantage financially since we are not the Yankees?

You are missing the point...I am not saying BRob hasn't been a top 5-10 second baseman recently...He clearly has been over the last 3-4 years.

But expecting him to do that well into his 30s isn't realistic.

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You are missing the point...I am not saying BRob hasn't been a top 5-10 second baseman recently...He clearly has been over the last 3-4 years.

But expecting him to do that well into his 30s isn't realistic.

No, as usual you've missed the bus. I was saying that an extension needs to be looked into. The guys has a reputation for playing a top-10 2B. If the trade isn't there and he walks away for only a pick, we forfeited a lot of value. I think he is a player you extend or trade. Period. And 5 years or so will hold its value.

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No, as usual you've missed the bus. I was saying that an extension needs to be looked into. The guys has a reputation for playing a top-10 2B. If the trade isn't there and he walks away for only a pick, we forfeited a lot of value. I think he is a player you extend or trade. Period. And 5 years or so will hold its value.

I would much rather take the picks than sign him to a foolish 4-5 year extension.

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I would much rather take the picks than sign him to a foolish 4-5 year extension.

And yet you complain that we don't have any infield talent... Once we have it, I would think you want to keep it or turn it into some ready made prospects. Not ship it off for 4-5 more years of development. I mean if that's all you can do and there is no deal out there and he doesn't want to extend then you don't have much choice. But if you can lock up a talent like BRob, you do it. But again, my first choice is to trade him because he does have value.

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And yet you complain that we don't have any infield talent... Once we have it, I would think you want to keep it or turn it into some ready made prospects. Not ship it off for 4-5 more years of development. I mean if that's all you can do and there is no deal out there and he doesn't want to extend then you don't have much choice. But if you can lock up a talent like BRob, you do it. But again, my first choice is to trade him because he does have value.

Just because we lack the talent long term doesn't mean you should be foolish with what you have short term.

History tells you that most second baseman start to decline(in a big way) around 32/33 years old..Obviously there are exceptions and maybe BRob ends up being one...Or maybe he ends up being Roberto Alomar.

Second base isn't a difficult position to fill....BRob is one of the best...Love watching him play...But we aren't sign the 28-30 year old BRob...We would be signing the 31-35 or 36 year old BRob and that I have a big problem with.

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While some folks think it's easy as can be to rise to the top of the AL East, I don't.

I think it's one of the harder jobs on the planet.

Silly me, because others evidently know that it's really a cake walk.

If only they had the GM job, we'd be mostly there by now ;-)

Anyway, I always thought it would be a 5-year job (plus or minus) to fix the organization.

When some folks were talking about how trading Erik would get us there oh so much faster, I was dubious.

Trading your good players *might* speed it up some. Or it might not. No way to know in advance.

AM never promised anything by 2010.

He did mention 2010 after he'd been here a few months and realized that things were worse than he thought.

He said that, given how bad things were, we should expect the team to be competitive no sooner than 2010.

He never say we're winning anything that year. He did say he was gonna fix the organization the right way, and that it would take time.

I guess he's not smart enough to realize how quick-and-easy the job should be ;-)

When the O's get good again, it will likely be because they have a mix of established 30-year-old's plus some good young guys.

Yet some folks are suggesting that we trade all our good 30-yr-olds for "prospects".

If you keep trading all your good 30-yr-olds for "prospects", you're just kicking the can down the road and delaying things further.

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Let's be realistic here...We have the chance to contend in 2010....2011 is probably more realistic here.

However, we have to bridge the gap, in a major way, in the talent difference between us and the rest of the top AL teams.

I started a poll about trading Guthrie and, predictably so, many would keep him.

And that gets me to the point of this thread...what are you guys actually willing to do to cut that talent gap?

We all know about the need to improve Int'l signings, draft well, sign picks, develop better, etc....I am not talking about that stuff. We all know and agree that all of this needs to happen, so it really doesn't need to be discussed here.

I am not talking about the stuff that will likely not start helping for another 4 or 5 years...I am talking about over the next 3 years or so.

This team has to start making serious strides on the major league level....but how?

Seriously, the only way this team ever regains competitiveness in their division is simple: Sign an ace caliber pitcher per year for the next four or even five seasons. In other words blow their bank wad on the best FA starting pitcher on the market for the next four - five years.

This may sound crazy but with injuries to pitchers, bad luck, etc. you cannot have too much pitching. If for some freak stroke of luck any of their minor league prospects also develop into something (Tillman, Aireietta, Matusz, etc) you can always trade pitching for positional talent.

You have to start where the team is the least talented and that simply is starting pitching. This is why the whole Tex thing to me was not only stupid, but a waste time and logic alltogether.

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While some folks think it's easy as can be to rise to the top of the AL East, I don't.

I think it's one of the harder jobs on the planet.

Silly me, because others evidently know that it's really a cake walk.

If only they had the GM job, we'd be mostly there by now ;-)

Anyway, I always thought it would be a 5-year job (plus or minus) to fix the organization.

When some folks were talking about how trading Erik would get us there oh so much faster, I was dubious.

Trading your good players *might* speed it up some. Or it might not. No way to know in advance.

AM never promised anything by 2010.

He did mention 2010 after he'd been here a few months and realized that things were worse than he thought.

He said that, given how bad things were, we should expect the team to be competitive no sooner than 2010.

He never say we're winning anything that year. He did say he was gonna fix the organization the right way, and that it would take time.

I guess he's not smart enough to realize how quick-and-easy the job should be ;-)

When the O's get good again, it will likely be because they have a mix of established 30-year-old's plus some good young guys.

Yet some folks are suggesting that we trade all our good 30-yr-olds for "prospects".

If you keep trading all your good 30-yr-olds for "prospects", you're just kicking the can down the road and delaying things further.

The more I read stuff from you, the more obvious becomes that you have an agenda against many posters and that you don't take the time to read and understand what people are actually saying.

That being said, I think the biggest difference is that you are fine with waiting another 4-5 years whereas many of us want it to happen quicker.

There is nothing wrong with either sides views but it is where the differences come in.

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The more I read stuff from you, the more obvious becomes that you have an agenda against many posters and that you don't take the time to read and understand what people are actually saying.

That being said, I think the biggest difference is that you are fine with waiting another 4-5 years whereas many of us want it to happen quicker.

There is nothing wrong with either sides views but it is where the differences come in.

It's not that I'm "fine" with it. It's that I think it's the only practical solution.

You think I like watching the O's lose?

People who whine about "the last 10 years" don't know how bad it's really been.

I've watched them lose for most of the last 25 years. I'm sick of it.

I also recall when they were good all the time. I can see what the difference is.

And the difference is not something you can fix by a bunch of aggressive trades. It's just not.

It's never happened yet, and it never will. That's not how baseball works now, nor is it how baseball ever worked.

You can hurry up and obtain a flash-in-the-pan team. That's not what I want.

What I want is a good franchise.

How anybody thinks that can be done in just a couple years is beyond me.

I think it's fine for people to wish for it. They're not gonna get it, but nothing wrong with wishing for it.

I don't think it's fine for people to make bogus claims about how easy it is, and how they're oh-so-much-smarter than people who actually have to do the job.

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It's not that I'm "fine" with it. It's that I think it's the only practical solution.

You think I like watching the O's lose?

People who whine about "the last 10 years" don't know how bad it's really been.

I've watched them lose for most of the last 25 years. I'm sick of it.

I also recall when they were good all the time. I can see what the difference is.

And the difference is not something you can fix by a bunch of aggressive trades. It's just not.

It's never happened yet, and it never will. That's not how baseball works now, nor is it how baseball ever worked.

You can hurry up and obtain a flash-in-the-pan team. That's not what I want.

What I want is a good franchise.

How anybody thinks that can be done in just a couple years is beyond me.

I think it's fine for people to wish for it. They're not gonna get it, but nothing wrong with wishing for it.

I don't think it's fine for people to make bogus claims about how easy it is, and how they're oh-so-much-smarter than people who actually have to do the job.

First of all, yes, i don't think it bothers you to watch them lose all the time. I think you would prefer them to win but I also think you would rather keep the team largely in tact because you like certain guys and you are fine with the idea of just waiting for a while.

As for the part I bolded...The biggest thing AM MUST do is obtain a lot of talent. He isn't going to go crazy in FA, which for the most part is an excellent strategy.

So, since that isn't going to happen, how else can talent be obtained? Trades, draft, waiver wire, Int'l signings and rule 5 pick ups...That is pretty much it.

Now, AM has done very little in terms of waiver wire stuff...He has made a rule 5 pickup but nothing to write home about..The Int'l signings should come but it will take a while. The draft is hit or miss on if they will be able to be successful or not IMO.

Ultimately, I think the plan has a lot of merits for the long term(ie 5 years from now and beyond)..But you have to think about the next 5 years as well.

The only way we are going to close the gap is by obtaining top level talent and the only way we are going to do that is in trades and free agency and free agency isn't happening.

So, it comes back to trades. They have got to get a big influx of talent in here...Denying that is just sheer idiocy.

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First of all, yes, i don't think it bothers you to watch them lose all the time. I think you would prefer them to win but I also think you would rather keep the team largely in tact because you like certain guys and you are fine with the idea of just waiting for a while.

As for the part I bolded...The biggest thing AM MUST do is obtain a lot of talent. He isn't going to go crazy in FA, which for the most part is an excellent strategy.

So, since that isn't going to happen, how else can talent be obtained? Trades, draft, waiver wire, Int'l signings and rule 5 pick ups...That is pretty much it.

Now, AM has done very little in terms of waiver wire stuff...He has made a rule 5 pickup but nothing to write home about..The Int'l signings should come but it will take a while. The draft is hit or miss on if they will be able to be successful or not IMO.

Ultimately, I think the plan has a lot of merits for the long term(ie 5 years from now and beyond)..But you have to think about the next 5 years as well.

The only way we are going to close the gap is by obtaining top level talent and the only way we are going to do that is in trades and free agency and free agency isn't happening.

So, it comes back to trades. They have got to get a big influx of talent in here...Denying that is just sheer idiocy.

Yeah, but you have to find a team willing to give you what you want. You've thrown out Gamel, Escobar, Wood, Hu and other top or near the top tier prospects. And you think it's AM's fault that we haven't gotten them via a trade? Come on, be realistic. This guy is right - when was the last time you saw a team make 5 trades that yielded top talent and gold?

No I agree the only way to right the ship is to bring in AS MUCH talent as possible through any means that doesn't hamstring the organization. And if a trade is there or can be worked out, I trust AM is talking with the other team. But again, he cannot just pick out a prospect and call that team and make them trade him away. That's just sheer idiocy to think that.

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Let's remember something Rshack...A big reason the Orioles are in better shape today vs November of last year is because of TRADES!

But you have to have chips to deal. And while you and I think we could convince another GM that Huff and/or Roberts or others may upgrade a team for one year, that doesn't mean they are as naive to believe that.

If you were the Angles/Brewers/Dodgers - would you trade top prospects for these one-dimensional pieces? BRob is better than 1-dimension, but you get my drift.

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