Mike Mussina’s comments on the new wall in LF

[bluedog]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

 It won't cost them money.

Might bruise their ego.

You offer them the best terms and you have a really good chance to sign them.

I bet you a dollar that Mancini will get a much bigger contract this offseason after playing in Houston than he would have if he'd stayed in Baltimore.

[bluedog]

4 hours ago, LookinUp said:

I think you’re missing the point. The Os want LH hitters, like Henderson, Stowers, Cowser, Mullins, Vavra, Kjerstad and Beavers. I think they created a clear incongruity that they can prepare for while it’s just not worth it for other teams to do so. Basically, a home field advantage that isn’t a disadvantage on the road.

I absolutely get why we did it. And someone else made a great point that the disadvantages of signing RH power hitters are offset by the advantages when pursuing pitchers. Wasn't criticizing the decision to change the wall - I know it was very intentionally done to create a home field advantage.

I was simply pointing out that Mancini's case will disincentive certain players from coming here, all else being equal. Maybe we don't care because Elias intends to fill all our position players from within the organization. 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I bet you a dollar that Mancini will get a much bigger contract this offseason after playing in Houston than he would have if he'd stayed in Baltimore.

So what team is going to be stupid enough to pay him more based off of park effects?

We, as fans, can see within minutes if a ball was a homerun in various parks. 

The people running teams have all the underlying data. 

A team would have to be poorly run for the wall to make any difference.

Now might Mancini go off in the playoffs for the Astros?  Sure, I hope he does.  Might that make a difference?  Maybe, more likely than the new wall at any rate.

[Il BuonO]

On 8/5/2022 at 7:26 PM, Frobby said:

This is such classic Mussina:

“I don’t give a damn where they put the wall, I’ll just outpitch the other guy who’s pitching in the same ballpark I am.”

Yep, that’s how the great pitchers think.  

Exactly.

[bluedog]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So what team is going to be stupid enough to pay him more based off of park effects?

We, as fans, can see within minutes if a ball was a homerun in various parks. 

The people running teams have all the underlying data. 

A team would have to be poorly run for the wall to make any difference.

Now might Mancini go off in the playoffs for the Astros?  Sure, I hope he does.  Might that make a difference?  Maybe, more likely than the new wall at any rate.

First off -- just look at Voth. He was released by Washington and he said specifically that he didn't have access to the same data and coaching that he's had access to here in Baltimore. Given all the evidence that advanced analytics help teams win games, why in the world woudn't the Nats being using the same data and tools that Elias is using? It's because some teams are "old school" (which to me means intentionally willfully ignorant).

Just because you and I can do the advanced analysis on park effects doesn't mean that 100% (or even 50%) of the teams out there will do that analysis and apply it in negotiations. Some will still base their activities on real stats and not implied ones. We know this is true because if it wasn't true, the Orioles wouldn't be able to get players for nothing on waivers that can be coached up and turned into effective contributors.

I am just saying there are a LOT of poorly run teams that make bad decisions that are not based on accurate data. If your a good agent, you can leverage that into a bigger contract for your client.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, bluedog said:

First off -- just look at Voth. He was released by Washington and he said specifically that he didn't have access to the same data and coaching that he's had access to here in Baltimore. Given all the evidence that advanced analytics help teams win games, why in the world woudn't the Nats being using the same data and tools that Elias is using? It's because some teams are "old school" (which to me means intentionally willfully ignorant).

Just because you and I can do the advanced analysis on park effects doesn't mean that 100% (or even 50%) of the teams out there will do that analysis and apply it in negotiations. Some will still base their activities on real stats and not implied ones. We know this is true because if it wasn't true, the Orioles wouldn't be able to get players for nothing on waivers that can be coached up and turned into effective contributors.

I am just saying there are a LOT of poorly run teams that make bad decisions that are not based on accurate data. If your a good agent, you can leverage that into a bigger contract for your client.

I think the number is a lot smaller than you do.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think the number is a lot smaller than you do.

Also, realizing that ballpark dimensions and conditions affect stats isn’t exactly cutting edge sabermetrics.   I’m sure the Nats and every other team are aware of this.  

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, bluedog said:

I bet you a dollar that Mancini will get a much bigger contract this offseason after playing in Houston than he would have if he'd stayed in Baltimore.

How will we know?

[DrungoHazewood]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:19 PM, Frobby said:

He led the Yankees in ERA several times.  But I didn’t post this thread to revisit Mussina’s career or take a referendum on his popularity with Orioles fans.  We’ve plowed that ground multiple times.  My point is simply, great pitchers don’t worry about the dimensions of their ballpark hurting their ERA.  They worry about outpitching the other guy who’s pitching in the same ballpark they are.  And Mussina did that the vast majority of the games he pitched in Camden Yards, regardless of its cozy dimensions.  To the tune of 77 wins, 41 losses.  

I've read that long ago it was considered uncouth to talk about park effects.  Of course nobody called them park effects and there weren't any metrics to quantify them, but everyone understood that it was deeper in RF in Fenway and that didn't help Ted Williams, and it was a canyon in LF* in Yankee and DiMaggio would have had a lot more homers in a lot of other parks.  But neither one ever complained about it, as far as I know, because you just played baseball in the park you're dealt.  The other team has to play in the same place, so win the game.

* I'll mention this again: people complain that deepest LC at OPACY is now 392.  For all of Joe DiMaggio's career it was about 460 to that same spot in Yankee Stadium. There probably weren't two-three homers hit to LC in Yankee in an average year.  The monuments out there were in play.  After the mid-70s renovation it was still pretty deep, but the monuments were 40 or 50' beyond the new fence.

[DrungoHazewood]

19 hours ago, bluedog said:

I bet you a dollar that Mancini will get a much bigger contract this offseason after playing in Houston than he would have if he'd stayed in Baltimore.

Every GM and analytics department and fan can look up Mancini's expected home run totals in any MLB park in 30 seconds. Nobody in 2022 is giving him an extra $100 for unadjusted numbers.

[foxfield]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Can_of_corn said:

I think it likely, with how long it took him to get voted in that he would not have made the HoF as a career Oriole.  

You got a guy with no Cy Youngs, no 20 win seasons, no ring,  who isn't in the Hall and you are giving him a statue?   I don't agree.

That is possible....but in that alternate universe maybe there were additional smart decisions that aided the Orioles.  

In fairness....you are probably correct...if Mussina being a non 20 game winner and non CY award winner as a career Oriole misses the HOF and therefore a statue.  When I say yes to both, my alternate universe sees more smart decisions by Angelos than say the Mussina and Chris Davis calls.

[foxfield]

21 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

That is what he gave up. That was always my biggest issue with Mu$$ina is that he never wanted that. He never wanted that for himself and trust me, he could have cared twi squats what Orioles fans wanted. 

I've told this story many times, but his brother was close to the WNST guys back when I would go into the studio for shows with Bob Haynie, and Mussina's own brother would talk about how aloof he was and how he didn't want to be the number one guy but preferred to go where he wouldn't have that burden. New York was perfect for him because he could slide in as the #3 pitcher, it was fairly close to his home in PA, and they would pay him the most money.

My entire problem with Mu$$ina is that he never wanted the legacy he could have had if he stayed with the Orioles. He's an afterthought in Yankees lure, but he would have perhaps surpassed or at least been up there with Jim Palmer as the greatest Orioles pitcher ever.

Instead, he's a guy on a plaque in the Hall of Very Good with no team hat on, which is some apropos for him. He was always on team Mu$$ina and that's why I'm not a fan of him.

Now maybe he's mellowed over the years and he could very well be a different person than the one his brother talked about all those years ago, so I don't dislike Mu$$ina as a person because I don't know him. But I will never, ever cheer for him and while I wouldn't boo him either, I'd prefer they give other players more opportunity to throw out first pitches like Adam Jones and Melvin More, who were Oriole-Orioles in my mind.

Tony, I remember this story and your using $$ for the two ss in Mikes name.  And like many I have shared in the pain of what could have been.  I remember Mike being spectacular in the playoffs against Randy Johnson.  I remember him being our last true Ace.

We all know the story of Angelos failing to act soon enough.  Joe Torre personally calling to say how much he wanted Mike to come be a Yankee.  And we all know Mike was as they say "aloof".

But it always felt a bit wrong to have the basis for your story to be a story that doesn't make sense.  Mikes brother....unless he was intentionally trying to hurt Mike, should never have said anything about Mike to the media...on the record or not.  And if he was not on great speaking terms with his brother for whatever reason...he likely was spouting an intentionally poor take without really knowing the facts.  I mean, if he was close to his brother....he would not have shared that opinion.

My point, is that perhaps you are being overly harsh to Mike Mussina based on a skeptical third hand story that shines a light on a bad situation in a way that makes it easier for us to accept.  That the best Oriole pitcher in Camden Yards history left us, in his prime, to go to the Yankees, because our owner is an idiot.

Edited August 8, 2022 by foxfield

[DrungoHazewood]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:23 AM, foxfield said:

He did not. So he will not. 
 

But if yours asking would he have if he stayed?  Absolutely 

 

On 8/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Can_of_corn said:

I think it likely, with how long it took him to get voted in that he would not have made the HoF as a career Oriole.  

You got a guy with no Cy Youngs, no 20 win seasons, no ring,  who isn't in the Hall and you are giving him a statue?   I don't agree.

Yea, but what about the scenario where Mussina resigns for a 8/100 deal but then the 2005 Orioles melt down and subsequently trade him to the Astros for Chris Burke and Ezequiel Astascio? 

[GoldGlove21]

Mussina was tough on the media, right? Didn't Angelos wait too long to offer him a contract? I can see why the media might have disliked Mussina, but I can also see why Mussina might have disliked ownership. And why do you need to be "the guy" if your team is the "the team" in baseball. 

[Just Regular]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Can_of_corn said:

I think it likely, with how long it took him to get voted in that he would not have made the HoF as a career Oriole.  

You got a guy with no Cy Youngs, no 20 win seasons, no ring,  who isn't in the Hall and you are giving him a statue?   I don't agree.

What Driveline and the hedge fund managers are doing to pitchers is going to take a lot of Jay Jaffe Cooperstown Casebook explaining in 20-30 years.     Guys whose career totals are going to look flimsy to 70-year-olds remembering Randy Johnson will nonetheless probably have been the very greatest pitchers of their generation.

How many MLB innings will Grayson Rodriguez throw through Age 26?

In a vacuum, Mike Mussina having New York Yankees teammates instead of Baltimore Orioles teammates the back part of his career doesn't much affect the pitcher he was.

For today's races, I'm interested to see what the Rays do with their Shane McClanahan.    He's starting to look a little wilty, and has already matched last year's platform near ~130 innings.