2023 Rotation

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

2-3 times a year he’d pitch a really dominant game and you’d think the light had switched on.  But it was always an illusion. 

He's got to be the worst fundamentals pitcher ever.  He had no control and led the league multiple times in walks, wild pitches, hit by pitch.  As a professional he was 1-for-106 with 97 strikeouts as a batter.  DRS has him as a -34 fielder, while peers like Bedard and Guthrie were positive.

And then there was that interview with Dave Trembley after a few beers where he pretty much straight up said Cabrera was on industrial quantities of steroids.

That was an ugly chapter in the franchise's history.

[Roll Tide]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Another post you made, from the McKenna thread:

 

@Frobby mentioned Bedard in the thread about Hall. My opinion is that he’s not ready and can’t believe that the Orioles think he is.

Erik Bedard:  before call up ERA 2.79, WHIP 1.03, HR/9 0.5, BB/9  1.9

Hall:                                            ERA 4.52, WHIP 1.43, HR/9 1.2 , BB/ 9 5.2 

**** Stats are from BBref Bedard 2003 combined minors, Hall 2022 combined.*****

===
I think you misconstrued my hypothetical about Bedard.   I was not commenting on whether Hall is as ready as Bedard or not.   I was asking a truly hypothetical question: if you knew a pitcher would need to struggle as a starter for two years against major league hitters in order to adjust and become pretty dominant in year 3, would you install him as a starter even if you knew he’d be hurting your (otherwise contending) team somewhat in the first two years?   So, I’m curious about your answer to that purely hypothetical question.  

Now, as to the comparison between Bedard and Hall, it’s pretty much apples and oranges.  The year before he made the majors, Bedard was recovering from TJ surgery.  The stats you cited above were only over 19.1 IP, and all at A+ or below.   You can’t compare that to Hall’s 2022, where he’s thrown a lot more innings, mostly at AAA.  it was a huge surprise when Bedard made the O’s roster in 2004, having never pitched an inning of AAA and having only thrown 19.1 innings in A+ and below the previous year.   The fact that he made the roster is testament to how weak the O’s pitching was at the time.  In May that year, they also called up Daniel Cabrera, who’d thrown all of 27.1 innings in AA and had never pitched in HiA at all.   That’s just how the team rolled in that era.   Bedard managed to develop into a good major league starter after a couple of years; Cabrera never did.   But Hall’s path to date has been a bit different than either of theirs.   

So, like I said, my gut feeling is that Hall is going to struggle for a year or two as a major league starter.   Will he come out the other side as a successful starting pitcher?  Is he, or the team, better off spending more time starting games in AAA next year?   Will he move to the bullpen instead and find major league success there?   That’s all TBD.  I think the plan to spend the rest of this year in the bullpen makes sense, and we’ll see if he makes the adjustment well enough over the next few weeks to return to the Orioles in that role for September.   And then he’ll come back next spring and probably get some looks as a starter and we can worry about that then.  
 

No ….earn the promotion. Promoting guys before they are ready ( mostly out of desperation) is the old Orioles way from the 90s on. If he progresses in two years in the minors them he may not need 2 years of learning at the big leads. Or maybe you go with the Akin role but why rush him when he’s clearly not ready?

Did the best I could considering the injury but he was dominant before the injury in 2002. Much better than Hall 

I can’t help but believe that Hall was rushed as Elias caved to the whining fans

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Mooreisbetter27 said:

Aren't you the same guy who thinks Holt is a wizard with pitcher's?

Why wouldn't you want Hall working with Holt on a daily basis?

Because the cost is losing games when he’s pitching like last week. 

[Big Mac]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

No ….earn the promotion. Promoting guys before they are ready ( mostly out of desperation) is the old Orioles way from the 90s on. If he progresses in two years in the minors them he may not need 2 years of learning at the big leads. Or maybe you go with the Akin role but why rush him when he’s clearly not ready?

Did the best I could considering the injury but he was dominant before the injury in 2002. Much better than Hall 

I can’t help but believe that Hall was rushed as Elias caved to the whining fans

There is nothing about Elias' tenure so far that makes me believe he would deviate one bit from his plan in order to cater to the fans.  He is pretty cold blooded in that regard. 

[Roll Tide]

47 minutes ago, Big Mac said:

There is nothing about Elias' tenure so far that makes me believe he would deviate one bit from his plan in order to cater to the fans.  He is pretty cold blooded in that regard. 

I thought so …but Hall didn’t help the Orioles last week and won’t before next season at some point. He can’t throw strikes consistently.

[tntoriole]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I thought so …but Hall didn’t help the Orioles last week and won’t before next season at some point. He can’t throw strikes consistently.

Elias thought maybe they would catch a little lightning in a bottle.. somebody called up, other team has not seen them, occasionally it goes really well.   Hall has thrown games too at AAA where he made hitters look just stupid.

If there was any other message, maybe Elias thought well if he gets clocked then maybe he will focus a bit more on what he needs to do to be successful. 
 

But it didn’t work out, we lost, stuff happens 

[Roll Tide]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

Elias thought maybe they would catch a little lightning in a bottle.. somebody called up, other team has not seen them, occasionally it goes really well.   Hall has thrown games too at AAA where he made hitters look just stupid.

If there was any other message, maybe Elias thought well if he gets clocked then maybe he will focus a bit more on what he needs to do to be successful. 
 

But it didn’t work out, we lost, stuff happens 

An uneducated guess based on nothing. Yes but recent history said he has control issues, and run issues. He produced exactly what was the stats said were most likely.

Maybe ….but I think , Earn it or you won’t be called up is the proper message.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

An uneducated guess based on nothing. Yes but recent history said he has control issues, and run issues. He produced exactly what was the stats said were most likely.

Maybe ….but I think , Earn it or you won’t be called up is the proper message.

But the message is also earn it and we still won't call you up.

[Roll Tide]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But the message is also earn it and we still won't call you up.

Shouldn’t be but Stowers is blocked. So they probably are telling him that they will clear a spot in the offseason and expect to go north to start the season 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Shouldn’t be but Stowers is blocked. So they probably are telling him that they will clear a spot in the offseason and expect to go north to start the season 

Right he's blocked by a roster with Odor, Nevin and Phillips on it.  (Combined -.7 rWAR)

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Shouldn’t be but Stowers is blocked. So they probably are telling him that they will clear a spot in the offseason and expect to go north to start the season 

Stowers isn’t blocked.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Stowers isn’t blocked.

Of course he isn't.

Just like Grayson wasn't blocked earlier in the year and how Adley wasn't blocked last year.

Oh and like Gunnar isn't blocked.

[Roll Tide]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right he's blocked by a roster with Odor, Nevin and Phillips on it.  (Combined -.7 rWAR)

The only player that matters is the OF. They aren’t cutting Odor and Nevin is the back up 3B. Besides Nevin and McKenna both have .300+ batting since the break. So they are indeed contributing despite sporadic playing time. 
 

Releasing Phillips would be an admission that Elias got it wrong. I doubt he’s eating $500,000 or whatever is left.

[tntoriole]

27 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

An uneducated guess based on nothing. Yes but recent history said he has control issues, and run issues. He produced exactly what was the stats said were most likely.

Maybe ….but I think , Earn it or you won’t be called up is the proper message.

Elias probably had many reasons we are not privy to.  If we went by your argument “he produced exactly what the stats said was most likely” ., well the stats said we were likely not going to be producing or winning many games this year with this motley bunch too .. not always what happens.  

.  I will trust that ME had his reasons.  

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

The only player that matters is the OF. They aren’t cutting Odor and Nevin is the back up 3B. Besides Nevin and McKenna both have .300+ batting since the break. So they are indeed contributing despite sporadic playing time. 
 

Releasing Phillips would be an admission that Elias got it wrong. I doubt he’s eating $500,000 or whatever is left.

You don’t need to release anyone for him to get substantial at bats.  You just need to sit players, which they are doing anyway.