The Lopez trade is costing the O's wins

[Alasdaire]

39 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Tie game. One out. Runners on first and second.  Obviously, a pitcher can miss high and inside.  They aren’t robots.   To even think it’s possible that Lopez was intentionally hit Vaughn to load the bases with one out is pretty dumb.  It defies common sense and baseball sense.   Lopez was pissed that he did it and then to have Vaughn be an idiot and make a thing of it.  Well.

24 minutes ago, Brian88 said:

Well he hit him in the shoulder, not the face, and Vaughn started chirping at Lopez immediately. He isn’t allowed to say anything back when someone is that stupid to act like the pitcher is trying to hit him to load the bases in a tie game in the 9th inning with Jose Abreu on deck?

I thought it was off the face guard, but regardless it was high and tight. Anyway, no one is saying he intentionally threw at his head.
 

In the Unwritten Rules of Baseball, you can be culpable for mental states other than intent. Like recklessness: being aware of a risk and choosing to take it anyway. A batter might take issue with a pitcher throwing a ball that he can’t control such that the situation arises where there’s even a chance he get beaned.

I think it’s pretty understandable for a batter to be annoyed when that happens and then to take a long look at the pitcher as they walk down to first. It’s akin to someone merging into your lane when they have a yield sign. You know they didn’t mean to cause a crash, but you’re gonna glare into their car.

I think the pitcher should just bite their lip at that point at move on. What are you getting all uppity about? You’re the one who almost just took the guy’s head off! It’s like the driver who just merged into your lane giving you the finger back. Quit victimizing yourself. Lopez looked like a douchebag and karma had it that he blew the game.

[RZNJ]

4 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

I thought it was off the face guard, but regardless it was high and tight. Anyway, no one is saying he intentionally threw at his head.
 

In the Unwritten Rules of Baseball, you can be culpable for mental states other than intent. Like recklessness: being aware of a risk and choosing to take it anyway. A batter might take issue with a pitcher throwing a ball that he can’t control such that the situation arises where there’s even a chance he get beaned.

I think it’s pretty understandable for a batter to be annoyed when that happens and then to take a long look at the pitcher as they walk down to first. It’s akin to someone merging into your lane when they have a yield sign. You know they didn’t mean to cause a crash, but you’re gonna glare into their car.

I think the pitcher should just bite their lip at that point at move on. What are you getting all uppity about? You’re the one who almost just took the guy’s head off! It’s like the driver who just merged into your lane giving you the finger back. Quit victimizing yourself. Lopez looked like a douchebag and karma had it that he blew the game.

The unwritten rule is that pitchers don’t apologize for hitting batters. It’s part of the game.  If the batter thinks it’s intentional he can glare, cuss, or charge.  If he doesn’t think it’s intentional he can cuss, scream, and shout.   When the batter glares at the pitcher or looks towards the pitcher and cusses him out or basically says wtf to the pitcher he’s inviting some kind of confrontation.   Only an idiot would think that was intentional.  Vaughn has been hit 9 times.  Maybe he dives into the plate.  Maybe the book on him is to throw up and in.  All I know is that pitch was 100% unintentional and Vaughn’s reaction caused a pretty normal response for a frustrated pitcher.   I can imagine myself in Lopez shoes.  I think a lot of pitchers would have reacted that way.  

[bluedog]

8 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The guy was playing while his kid was in the hospital with a good chance of dying and we are questioning his makeup?  FFS.

 

I didn't question his makeup. I have no idea about his makeup. I asked whether or not the team questioned his makeup which *might* explain the strange move of trading away an all-star closer, whose under team control for years during a pennant race.

If you and I were friends sitting in a bar, over a beer, you probably would have responded constructively by sharing your insights about his background. I didn't know about his kid. I certainly would never want to suggest that someone who's dealing with personal family issues has makeup issues.

But instead you attack me and suggest I'm some kind of heartless person for saying something you frame as negative. You never seem to pass up the opportunity to go negative on people.

OH should be a place where people can talk about the O's safe from constant criticism and negging. Guess its not.

 

 

[Sports Guy]

17 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I didn't question his makeup. I have no idea about his makeup. I asked whether or not the team questioned his makeup which *might* explain the strange move of trading away an all-star closer, whose under team control for years during a pennant race.

If you and I were friends sitting in a bar, over a beer, you probably would have responded constructively by sharing your insights about his background. I didn't know about his kid. I certainly would never want to suggest that someone who's dealing with personal family issues has makeup issues.

But instead you attack me and suggest I'm some kind of heartless person for saying something you frame as negative. You never seem to pass up the opportunity to go negative on people.

OH should be a place where people can talk about the O's safe from constant criticism and negging. Guess its not.

 

 

Ok, if you didn’t know about his kid, that’s fine.  It was a huge story last year and one talked about a lot, so I would assume an Os fan would know that.

I just felt it was completely over the top to question someone’s makeup or imply the team could, knowing what he went through.  I have friends who have a young Daughter that has been in and out of cancer treatments since she was 6 months old.  Watching what they have had to go through and how they have handled it would make me question anyone who questions the makeup of people having to deal with arguably the worst thing you can possibly deal with.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sports Guy

[waroriole]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Ok, if you didn’t know about his kid, that’s fine.  It was a huge story last year and one talked about a lot, so I would assume an Os fan would know that.

I just felt it was completely over the top to question someone’s makeup or imply the team could, knowing what he went through.  I have friends who have a tour. Daughter that has been in and out of cancer treatments since she was 6 months old.  Watching what they have had to go through and how they have handled it would make me question anyone who questions the makeup of people having to deal with arguably their worst thing you can possibly deal with.

All you have to do is listen to Hyde talk about Jorge for 10 seconds to know they think his makeup is off the charts. It’s easy to see how much they think of him as a person. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, waroriole said:

All you have to do is listen to Hyde talk about Jorge for 10 seconds to know they think his makeup is off the charts. It’s easy to see how much they think of him as a person. 

Yep.

The Os traded him because they felt they could replace him and wanted to deal him when his value was high.

That’s it.

[maybenxtyr]

9 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The guy was playing while his kid was in the hospital with a good chance of dying and we are questioning his makeup?  FFS.

 

Yeah, some people on here have to play sports therapist with all of their degrees. 

 

Sometimes players have a bad stretch...sometimes the good stretch ends and never comes back.

[bluedog]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Ok, if you didn’t know about his kid, that’s fine.  It was a huge story last year and one talked about a lot, so I would assume an Os fan would know that.

I just felt it was completely over the top to question someone’s makeup or imply the team could, knowing what he went through.  I have friends who have a tour. Daughter that has been in and out of cancer treatments since she was 6 months old.  Watching what they have had to go through and how they have handled it would make me question anyone who questions the makeup of people having to deal with arguably their worst thing you can possibly deal with.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Baseball, but I lost my dad last year after a 3 year bout with Cancer. I am CEO of a tech startup and I have 200+ investors in my company. All of them were supportive of me while my Dad was in the hospital, but they also held me accountable for running my company and doing my job. Not because they were heartless people but because that's real life. If I needed to take time off to be with my father because I couldn't concentrate on work, that would have been acceptable and we would have appointed someone else to run the company in my absence.

Trading Lopez is a head scratcher. I don't think Elias has shown a pattern of acting irrationally, so I was simply asking might there be another reason he made that trade. Lopez just blew a save where he hit two players in an inning and yelled at one of the guys after he hit him. He blew consecutive saves against the Twins where he seemed to get rattled just before he was traded away. I don't think its crazy to ask the question whether or not Elias lost faith in his ability to handle the pressure of the game in high leverage situations.

As for knowing that Lopez had family problems, I don't follow the O's closely enough that I know their personal stories. I watch their games on MLB.tv when they are competitive. I come here when they are winning to share the excitement with other O's fans with the hope that its a safe and low stress place to hangout and rap about baseball.

[Bahama O's Fan]

I liked the trade at the time. I think it was just simply a matter of selling high, knowing you can basically replace the production. It also gave us a potential starter, which is what we need.

[Alasdaire]

2 hours ago, RZNJ said:

The unwritten rule is that pitchers don’t apologize for hitting batters. It’s part of the game.  If the batter thinks it’s intentional he can glare, cuss, or charge.  If he doesn’t think it’s intentional he can cuss, scream, and shout.   When the batter glares at the pitcher or looks towards the pitcher and cusses him out or basically says wtf to the pitcher he’s inviting some kind of confrontation.   Only an idiot would think that was intentional.  Vaughn has been hit 9 times.  Maybe he dives into the plate.  Maybe the book on him is to throw up and in.  All I know is that pitch was 100% unintentional and Vaughn’s reaction caused a pretty normal response for a frustrated pitcher.   I can imagine myself in Lopez shoes.  I think a lot of pitchers would have reacted that way.  

I agree that the pitcher isn't expected to apologize. But I think there's some wiggle room for a batter to take a long look, and the pitcher should suck it up given that he's the one who just made a mistake.

All of the stuff in unwritten rule territory is borderline, so no one is clearly right or wrong either way. But I doubt anyone on the Sox thought Lopez was literally throwing at Vaughn's head.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Alasdaire said:

I agree that the pitcher isn't expected to apologize. But I think there's some wiggle room for a batter to take a long look, and the pitcher should suck it up given that he's the one who just made a mistake.

All of the stuff in unwritten rule territory is borderline, so no one is clearly right or wrong either way. But I doubt anyone on the Sox thought Lopez was literally throwing at Vaughn's head.

Ok. I'll agree to disagree.  If I'm pitching in that situation and one gets away from me and I just loaded the bases in a tie game, and the hitter gives me that look and says anything derogatory my way I'd find it very difficult to ignore it. IMO, Vaughn was out of line and Looez wasn't. 

[Alasdaire]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok. I'll agree to disagree.  If I'm pitching in that situation and one gets away from me and I just loaded the bases in a tie game, and the hitter gives me that look and says anything derogatory my way I'd find it very difficult to ignore it. IMO, Vaughn was out of line and Looez wasn't. 

And therein lies why the benches cleared! Disagreement over baseball etiquette haha.

[Sports Guy]

41 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with Baseball, but I lost my dad last year after a 3 year bout with Cancer. I am CEO of a tech startup and I have 200+ investors in my company. All of them were supportive of me while my Dad was in the hospital, but they also held me accountable for running my company and doing my job. Not because they were heartless people but because that's real life. If I needed to take time off to be with my father because I couldn't concentrate on work, that would have been acceptable and we would have appointed someone else to run the company in my absence.

Trading Lopez is a head scratcher. I don't think Elias has shown a pattern of acting irrationally, so I was simply asking might there be another reason he made that trade. Lopez just blew a save where he hit two players in an inning and yelled at one of the guys after he hit him. He blew consecutive saves against the Twins where he seemed to get rattled just before he was traded away. I don't think its crazy to ask the question whether or not Elias lost faith in his ability to handle the pressure of the game in high leverage situations.

As for knowing that Lopez had family problems, I don't follow the O's closely enough that I know their personal stories. I watch their games on MLB.tv when they are competitive. I come here when they are winning to share the excitement with other O's fans with the hope that its a safe and low stress place to hangout and rap about baseball.

Well, why would they have lost faith in him in those situations when he didn’t give them any reason to lose faith?

Sorry about your dad.  Lost mine at 16.  It’s terrible 

[bluedog]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well, why would they have lost faith in him in those situations when he didn’t give them any reason to lose faith?

Sorry about your dad.  Lost mine at 16.  It’s terrible 

Thanks. We all have to deal with tragedy. What helps is having others with empathy to help us through it.

My dad was a huge Cleveland fan. He and I went to an O's / Indians game every chance we got. Last few weeks before he died he was in a medical coma. I sat by his bed and read him Cleveland box scores every morning. I like to think it helped.

Sports can divide us or connect us. I may be a softy, but I prefer the latter. I wish OH was a little more forgiving. We're all connected by our love of the O's.

I don't know about why the O's would lose faith in Lopez. That's why I was asking about whether there was a makeup concern.

 

[Sports Guy]