MacPhail and Markakis

[dsizzlevt]

I'm kind of shocked by the lack of faith in Andy MacPhail. This has been a pretty slow developing off-season. So far, he has made one solid trade and filled a major hole at shortstop. The whole direction of this off-season was dependent on signing Teixeira. Now that that whole story is finished, we can move on. I'm sure there are still more moves on the horizon, but I feel like the whole idea of losing faith in him because he didn't sign Teixeira and hasn't extended Markakis (yet) is silly.

[DrungoHazewood]

I am just curious, since "he's not the right man to lead us back into contention".....who would you hire to return us to contention?

Someone with a lot of money and the willingness to dip into his personal fortune to sign for a lot of good players without the expectation of it ever being repaid. Someone like Roman Abramovich, or maybe Mark Cuban.

[foxfield]

I keep seeing this, and I just feel it's totally misleading. His replacement is irrelevant to the job he himself does. It's a completely loaded question: Of course people here aren't going to have the intimate knowledge of scouting departments (though I would give a long hard look to Jordan) of all MLB teams, who has the desire to work for Baltimore, and what traits they would be looking for in a PBO.

I don't think this question helps to examine AM and the job he is doing. If someone is failing at a task, you don't keep them in their position simply because you don't know who to replace him with - hopefully, there will be a search committee for him, or some process.

No the question is not loaded. Your description of the process is exactly what is happening. And more to your point..."people here aren't going to have the intimate knowledge of scouting etc...." This explains much of the vitriolic nonsense that is being spewed here.

You can make an arguement that he is not moving fast enough. Tying his success or failure to Tex or Kakes or Brob is silly. There is no one who should be untouchable, no one. Until this team is a player or two away, no one should be that important.

What we are watching is a process of tearing down and rebuilding a completely wrecked franchise. If any one of us thinks signing one or two free agents is gonna cure what ails us, well that is just delusional. We need young prospects and lots of em. Everyone notes that long term we have no infield, unless we resign Brob.

Changing a culture of failure does not occur overnight. I am not trying to be an apologist for AM either. I just think that good moves or not, he is moving in the right direction and deserves more time than many here are giving him to succeed. The prime reason we have failed for so long is organizational. If you think AM is another example of that and you are right, well I don't even want to think about that.

Lets just say that his success is as important if not more important than any player right now. If we could wait all those years for Dcab, AM it would seem should get some support. That said, I support the uniform and root for the guys that wear it. Always have always will.

[TonySoprano]

For many Tex was the straw that broke the camel's back with the Orioles and MacPhail,

Many?

There was an outspoken group who talked about keeping expectations low, so as not to be burned in the end. I was labeled as negative, anti-Orioles offseason. Well, noone in my group was threatening to jump off bridges in the end.

I'm not going to sugarcoat what MacPhail has done, but I do believe it's too early to talk about firing the man. With all his supposed autonomy he still has to answer to Angelos, as every GM does with his owner. Names change, results are the same, the one constant is Angelos.

[Andy_Dufresne]

I'm kind of shocked by the lack of faith in Andy MacPhail. This has been a pretty slow developing off-season. So far, he has made one solid trade and filled a major hole at shortstop. The whole direction of this off-season was dependent on signing Teixeira. Now that that whole story is finished, we can move on. I'm sure there are still more moves on the horizon, but I feel like the whole idea of losing faith in him because he didn't sign Teixeira and hasn't extended Markakis (yet) is silly.

First, my lack of faith isn't in MacPhail. It's in those who hired MacPhail. I don;t trust their judgement and there's been no reason to. MacPhail was GM of the Twins when they won WS. But they won in 87 the year he got there, he didn't do much for that. His 12 years with the Cubs weren't considered successful. Personally, letting Dusty Baker near a pitching staff is malpractice.

I don;t call the Freel-Ramon trade solid. You traded a disgruntled 32 year old catcher for a disgruntled 32 year old utility player and minor league depth, no pitching prospects. Freel's 33 years old before opening day. He's played barely 100 games at 3B in his career. He's not an everyday player. Besides, Scott Moore, younger and a former #1 draft choice should be able to handle 3B. He traded a starting catcher for depth on a team that has a plethora of utility type players,Moore, Salazaar, Murphy.

He did fill a hole at SS. That hole existed all of last year. No credit for waiting over a year to find someone to play the 2nd most important defensive position on the field(catcher is most important). Izturis hasn't been an everyday player since 2004. His career OBP is .299. No one else seriously wanted him. And there are no real SS prospects in the O's system. So, MacPhail rented a 29 year old no stick good glove SS. No reason for props for Andy, it was the least he could do.

The failure to sign Tex, the failure to lock up Markakis and the failure to resolve the Roberts sign or trade isn't the reason for lack of faith and optimism with MacPhail. The Orioles have NO STARTING PITCHING. Guthrie is nice, a great story last year, but he's no one's idea of a #1 pitcher. MacPhail should have come out of the gate with a plan to sign at least two starting pitchers from the group of pitchers not named CC, AJ or Lowe. Signing younger pitchers with an upside like Sheets, Penny, Perez... would have been the direction to go. Obviously they all have problems otherwise they wouldn't be available.

Rather than commenting on the lack of faith fans have with the front office, maybe the lack of respect the front office has for the fans shold be higher on the agenda.

[amateurfan]

No the question is not loaded. Your description of the process is exactly what is happening. And more to your point..."people here aren't going to have the intimate knowledge of scouting etc...." This explains much of the vitriolic nonsense that is being spewed here.

You can make an arguement that he is not moving fast enough. Tying his success or failure to Tex or Kakes or Brob is silly. There is no one who should be untouchable, no one. Until this team is a player or two away, no one should be that important.

What we are watching is a process of tearing down and rebuilding a completely wrecked franchise. If any one of us thinks signing one or two free agents is gonna cure what ails us, well that is just delusional. We need young prospects and lots of em. Everyone notes that long term we have no infield, unless we resign Brob.

Changing a culture of failure does not occur overnight. I am not trying to be an apologist for AM either. I just think that good moves or not, he is moving in the right direction and deserves more time than many here are giving him to succeed. The prime reason we have failed for so long is organizational. If you think AM is another example of that and you are right, well I don't even want to think about that.

Lets just say that his success is as important if not more important than any player right now. If we could wait all those years for Dcab, AM it would seem should get some support. That said, I support the uniform and root for the guys that wear it. Always have always will.

Considering the two in tandem is conflating two different issues. It is not necessary or even helpful to examine the job that AM is going and then also with possible replacements. Deal with one issue, come to a decision and then deal with the other.

The reason the question is loaded is because you knew in posing it that you were not going to get a long list of names from people. Because of that, it's a loaded question.

[amateurfan]

No the question is not loaded. Your description of the process is exactly what is happening. And more to your point..."people here aren't going to have the intimate knowledge of scouting etc...." This explains much of the vitriolic nonsense that is being spewed here.

You can make an arguement that he is not moving fast enough. Tying his success or failure to Tex or Kakes or Brob is silly. There is no one who should be untouchable, no one. Until this team is a player or two away, no one should be that important.

What we are watching is a process of tearing down and rebuilding a completely wrecked franchise. If any one of us thinks signing one or two free agents is gonna cure what ails us, well that is just delusional. We need young prospects and lots of em. Everyone notes that long term we have no infield, unless we resign Brob.

Changing a culture of failure does not occur overnight. I am not trying to be an apologist for AM either. I just think that good moves or not, he is moving in the right direction and deserves more time than many here are giving him to succeed. The prime reason we have failed for so long is organizational. If you think AM is another example of that and you are right, well I don't even want to think about that.

Lets just say that his success is as important if not more important than any player right now. If we could wait all those years for Dcab, AM it would seem should get some support. That said, I support the uniform and root for the guys that wear it. Always have always will.

The part is bold is a partial use of a quotation for the purposes of changing what I meant. There are many people here who are knowledgeable of scouting, of assessing players, and the players in different organizations. That leads to great discussions. What I meant was that there are lots of different people in the front offices of other MLB teams. These are the most likely pool of candidates, but also the ones fans probably have the least knowledge of. There's a big difference in those statements.

[Boy Howdy]

First, my lack of faith isn't in MacPhail. It's in those who hired MacPhail. I don;t trust their judgement and there's been no reason to. MacPhail was GM of the Twins when they won WS. But they won in 87 the year he got there, he didn't do much for that.

This really isn't true.

In February, he pulled off a 4-for-2 swap that brought the Twins closer Jeff Reardon. Reardon appeared in 8 of 14 post-season games, hurling 10 innings and saving three after finishing in the top 11 in both Cy Young and MVP voting.

Weeks later, he made another deal for utility man Al Newman, kind of a poor man's Chone Figgins. Newman wound up sticking around long enough to win a second World Series ring with the Twins in 1991.

Shortly before opening day, he made a 3-for-2 trade to bring in leadoff hitter Dan Gladden. Gladden was a fiery type that remained a starter through the 1991 World championship season.

MacPhail swung in-season deals for veterans Joe Niekro, Dan Schatzeder and Don Baylor. Baylor batted .389 in the post-season, Schatzeder became a key lefty out of the bullpen and won a game in the World Series.

All of those players acquired by MacPhail in 1987 saw action in that season's World Series, and they weren't the only ones. Not to mentione he joined the Twins in 1985, so all the 1986 moves go on his resume as well.

[foxfield]

The part is bold is a partial use of a quotation for the purposes of changing what I meant. There are many people here who are knowledgeable of scouting, of assessing players, and the players in different organizations. That leads to great discussions. What I meant was that there are lots of different people in the front offices of other MLB teams. These are the most likely pool of candidates, but also the ones fans probably have the least knowledge of. There's a big difference in those statements.

Not intending to change your meaning and I noted it was a partial quote. And I will concede that the issues of who would or should replace AM is irrelevant to the question of is he doing a good job. The question as posed to JTrea81 was becuase his comments present as fact that AM has failed, he clearly believes this to be the case. Debating which move pushes one over the edge as the original poll question indicates, I was curious as to who he might name or who anyone else might name. The follow up question was going to be how long should said person get to fix things and of course how would you determine a method of success.

The point was not to ask a loaded question, but to look at what a new course would look like and how that might look vs where we are. I cant think of a name or a timeframe that would allow me to take the position that AM is the problem and needs to be fired today. But if JTrea81 or anyone else has a plan that works in 18 months to fix one of the worst run organizations in baseball...I'm all ears.

Again, my apologies for taking your partial quote previously.

[amateurfan]

Not intending to change your meaning and I noted it was a partial quote. And I will concede that the issues of who would or should replace AM is irrelevant to the question of is he doing a good job. The question as posed to JTrea81 was becuase his comments present as fact that AM has failed, he clearly believes this to be the case. Debating which move pushes one over the edge as the original poll question indicates, I was curious as to who he might name or who anyone else might name. The follow up question was going to be how long should said person get to fix things and of course how would you determine a method of success.

The point was not to ask a loaded question, but to look at what a new course would look like and how that might look vs where we are. I cant think of a name or a timeframe that would allow me to take the position that AM is the problem and needs to be fired today. But if JTrea81 or anyone else has a plan that works in 18 months to fix one of the worst run organizations in baseball...I'm all ears.

Again, my apologies for taking your partial quote previously.

I agree with this. No apologies necessary. Take Care.

[Andy_Dufresne]

This really isn't true.

In February, he pulled off a 4-for-2 swap that brought the Twins closer Jeff Reardon. Reardon appeared in 8 of 14 post-season games, hurling 10 innings and saving three after finishing in the top 11 in both Cy Young and MVP voting.

Weeks later, he made another deal for utility man Al Newman, kind of a poor man's Chone Figgins. Newman wound up sticking around long enough to win a second World Series ring with the Twins in 1991.

Shortly before opening day, he made a 3-for-2 trade to bring in leadoff hitter Dan Gladden. Gladden was a fiery type that remained a starter through the 1991 World championship season.

MacPhail swung in-season deals for veterans Joe Niekro, Dan Schatzeder and Don Baylor. Baylor batted .389 in the post-season, Schatzeder became a key lefty out of the bullpen and won a game in the World Series.

All of those players acquired by MacPhail in 1987 saw action in that season's World Series, and they weren't the only ones. Not to mentione he joined the Twins in 1985, so all the 1986 moves go on his resume as well.

Aside from that, you agree with me then?:thumbsup1::thumbsup1:

[Boy Howdy]

Aside from that, you agree with me then?:thumbsup1::thumbsup1:

Not exactly. MacPhail wasn't the GM for the bulk of his time with the Cubs.

I'm not high on Scott Moore,and object to your use of the word "failure" in pretty much every example you cited.

I don't think Teixeira wanted to be here, and considering it's January 2, 2009 with many of the very names you mentioned unsigned by anybody, I don't see where MacPhail can be judged one way or the other.

While I think we disagree on a lot of what he should do, I too was unimpressed with the return for Ramon Hernandez. My suspicion is that some combination of MacPhail, Trembley and the coaching staff determined that the team was better off without Ramon no matter what. They may be right. They're certainly in a better position to judge that than you or I.

While I've felt let down by the front office dating back to Davey Johnson's departure after 1997, I've never been inspired to rage against them the way some posters seem to be. Lately, in fact, I'm very optimistic about what they've been doing and trying to do since MacPhail came aboard.

Time will tell.

[JTrea81]

But if JTrea81 or anyone else has a plan that works in 18 months to fix one of the worst run organizations in baseball...I'm all ears.

As I've said, you don't have to rebuild the ML team for 4 years, it could have been done quicker, and still might be able to be done. You can continue to rebuild the organization as a whole while strengthening what you have already with the ML team and allow them to compete.

The Orioles had the resources to do just that and still do.

It's not an all or nothing scenario.

[DrungoHazewood]

As I've said, you don't have to rebuild the ML team for 4 years, it could have been done quicker, and still might be able to be done. You can continue to rebuild the organization as a whole while strengthening what you have already with the ML team and allow them to compete.

The Orioles had the resources to do just that and still do.

It's not an all or nothing scenario.

I think that is MacPhail's plan. He just hasn't signed up to your specific budget, blueprint, and timetable.

[allstar1579]

First, my lack of faith isn't in MacPhail. It's in those who hired MacPhail. I don;t trust their judgement and there's been no reason to. MacPhail was GM of the Twins when they won WS. But they won in 87 the year he got there, he didn't do much for that. His 12 years with the Cubs weren't considered successful. Personally, letting Dusty Baker near a pitching staff is malpractice.

I don;t call the Freel-Ramon trade solid. You traded a disgruntled 32 year old catcher for a disgruntled 32 year old utility player and minor league depth, no pitching prospects. Freel's 33 years old before opening day. He's played barely 100 games at 3B in his career. He's not an everyday player. Besides, Scott Moore, younger and a former #1 draft choice should be able to handle 3B. He traded a starting catcher for depth on a team that has a plethora of utility type players,Moore, Salazaar, Murphy.

He did fill a hole at SS. That hole existed all of last year. No credit for waiting over a year to find someone to play the 2nd most important defensive position on the field(catcher is most important). Izturis hasn't been an everyday player since 2004. His career OBP is .299. No one else seriously wanted him. And there are no real SS prospects in the O's system. So, MacPhail rented a 29 year old no stick good glove SS. No reason for props for Andy, it was the least he could do.

The failure to sign Tex, the failure to lock up Markakis and the failure to resolve the Roberts sign or trade isn't the reason for lack of faith and optimism with MacPhail. The Orioles have NO STARTING PITCHING. Guthrie is nice, a great story last year, but he's no one's idea of a #1 pitcher. MacPhail should have come out of the gate with a plan to sign at least two starting pitchers from the group of pitchers not named CC, AJ or Lowe. Signing younger pitchers with an upside like Sheets, Penny, Perez... would have been the direction to go. Obviously they all have problems otherwise they wouldn't be available.

Rather than commenting on the lack of faith fans have with the front office, maybe the lack of respect the front office has for the fans shold be higher on the agenda.

You are ignoring some other key points when you choose your arguments though. Trading Hernandez was key because for the past 2 years he has had negative value, so to trade him for $4 mil in salary relief and a couple throw ins on top of a ML piece is pretty darn impressive actually. Scott Moore is a complete bust, which last year showed pretty well. Not only could he not handle a starting job in the majors, he couldn't handle the starting job in AAA, he should not be mentioned as a savior, fill-in, or even warm body on the bench at this point.

Getting Izturis was filling a gap for the next season or two while they attempt to find a long term solution, he didn't go throwing $10 mil away on a 30 something SS like Furcal, he took something that won't get in the way of a long term option, and hopefully the defense will help build the confidence of the young pitchers trying to develop along the way.

You can't count the "failure" to sign a free agent against any GM unless you personally know said free agent and know that he wants to play here so bad that he would take less money to do it. I won't get into what I do know, but I will point out that he didn't give the O's or Nats a chance to match, and he said all along he wanted to play for a contender, which we are not. Don't complain about not extending Markakis, a) he is not a free agent next year, and b) the way the market is driving down prices we could get him for less once he sees his arbitration numbers drop because of the declining market. Roberts will be handled at some point, either through extension or trade. Yes the starting pitching is horrible, but it is going to remain that way until our wave of young pitchers comes up. SP is not worth overspending for a guy with miles on his arm from another team when you have no way of competing with or without them. Find one SP option out there that would be successful and less of an injury risk in 3 years when these kids are up and ready to contribute, oh and yes in 3 years we will have to sign players at every position just about because we have no positional prospects on top of the wasted money for a SP. Then the last point, Sheets, AJ, Penny...none of these guys want to sign with the O's, we are horrible right now. You are going to overspend both in $$ and years to do so and that is a bad investment when you have other holes to fill along the way.