Potential trade for Corbin Burnes or Brandon Woodruff

[spleen1015]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

Awww poor thing.  My workplace gives me 10 mil they can call me whatever name they wish lol. 

You just want to talk trash about the guy. First he's whining about money when he wasn't. Now, it's this. Whatever dewd.

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

Awww poor thing.  My workplace gives me 10 mil they can call me whatever name they wish lol. 

How about if they pay you your normal salary and call you whatever they want?

[Sports Guy]

3 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Adley wouldn’t do this.  Cal didn’t either

You didn't answer the question.

[Sports Guy]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

2 years is not enough to burn down the farm for. 

Do you think Elias will stop building the farm system going forward?

[emmett16]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Do you think Elias will stop building the farm system going forward?

If we can get one of those guys, we are also going to get a fairly high pick when they walk.  That replaces one of the prospects you lost.  We need to do what we can to get a legit topflight starter to lead the rotation and I'd be willing to part with two top 10 prospects (not named Hendersen, Cowser, Rodriguez & Holiday) and another two top 40 prospects to get it done.  If that's not their plan, then I'm confused as to what they are trying to accomplish.

[foxfield]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Do you think Elias will stop building the farm system going forward?

 I don't think a Elias or any good GM would stop building a system.  My prime issue with DD was that even with the International Market untapped, he sold out to win now.  I certainly enjoyed the success while it lasted but....

But the point you were responding to is a good point as well.  2 years isn't enough to unload the system for.  You don't do that to make the playoffs, if you do it at all.  You do it because you need 1 piece to win it all. 

You cannot win long term spending 12-18 years of service for 2.

The Orioles are really in a perfect position.  Ownership excluded.  They are talented, deep and they have no money commitments.  It may not be sexy, but it's likely the right decision to not move 12-18 years of service for 2...this year.  Maybe that changes as early as mid season.  But its the right call as of today.

 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, foxfield said:

 I don't think a Elias or any good GM would stop building a system.  My prime issue with DD was that even with the International Market untapped, he sold out to win now.  I certainly enjoyed the success while it lasted but....

But the point you were responding to is a good point as well.  2 years isn't enough to unload the system for.  You don't do that to make the playoffs, if you do it at all.  You do it because you need 1 piece to win it all. 

You cannot win long term spending 12-18 years of service for 2.

The Orioles are really in a perfect position.  Ownership excluded.  They are talented, deep and they have no money commitments.  It may not be sexy, but it's likely the right decision to not move 12-18 years of service for 2...this year.  Maybe that changes as early as mid season.  But its the right call as of today.

 

I would take a WS title over a good farm system and if you have faith in Elias and his staff, you shouldn't question if we can recover and continue to have a good pipeline of talent coming through.  Lots of teams do this and are successful with it.  No reason the Os can't.

[foxfield]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I would take a WS title over a good farm system and if you have faith in Elias and his staff, you shouldn't question if we can recover and continue to have a good pipeline of talent coming through.  Lots of teams do this and are successful with it.  No reason the Os can't.

Personally I have gone long enough without a WS title and on that I am sure we do not disagree.  But your comment is simply not accurate.  Do lots teams do this?  Yes of course, I agree.  But there are not lots of teams doing this successfully.  And those who have done it successfully have built their program long enough that they are quite successful already and are spending surplus to maximize the current gain.  

My confidence in Elias is that so far he has met or exceeded most of my expectations.  However, one season of non losing baseball doesn't warrant a Statue at OPACY.  It's what happens here forward that will determine his legacy, not that he did well while accumulating high draft picks.

As a purely singular one off, yes I would trade the farm for a WS title.  But in a singular one off, I would trade waiting 2-3 more years for multiple WS.  The truth is, even if you are good it is hard to win one much less multiple.  And the teams that have won multiple WS or at least been in multiple WS have taken a path similar to the one the O's are on now.

The truth is, anyone can make a living bashing the O's.  They have been easy to bash for the better part of a quarter century.  I am going to remain a bit more neutral to the O's and Elias.  Cautiously optimistic.  And I don't really worry about trading 12-18 years of potential for 2 years of good because, there is already ample evidence that says Elias wont do that today.

Of course you will say he only cares about the ranking of his farm.  That's a good line, but Elias knows that baseball people will judge him on success of the team, not that he took several years of being terrible to become one of the best farms in the land.  Just as he knows that baseball people will understand why every move should not be designed to impress someone who thinks winning baseball decisions are easy.

[NCRaven]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I would take a WS title over a good farm system and if you have faith in Elias and his staff, you shouldn't question if we can recover and continue to have a good pipeline of talent coming through.  Lots of teams do this and are successful with it.  No reason the Os can't.

I generally agree with the thought, but wondered about the word "Lots."  Over the past 20 seasons 4 teams have won multiple World Series.  So, they certainly seemed able to maintain a good pipeline.  Boston won 4, San Fran won 3, St. Louis won 2 (and appeared in 2 others), and Houston won 2  (and appeared in 3 others).  Additionally, Philly and the Dodgers won 1 and appeared in 2 others, while KC won 1 and appeared in another.  So, just looking at that narrow approach, without looking at roster construction and how the pipeline contributed.  That's 7 teams that were able to maintain or improve after appearing in or winning a World Series.

I think "lots", in this context, really isn't that far off the mark.  7 out of 30 might not be lots, but it really is a pretty strong number, IMO.

[Sports Guy]

42 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Personally I have gone long enough without a WS title and on that I am sure we do not disagree.  But your comment is simply not accurate.  Do lots teams do this?  Yes of course, I agree.  But there are not lots of teams doing this successfully.  And those who have done it successfully have built their program long enough that they are quite successful already and are spending surplus to maximize the current gain.  

My confidence in Elias is that so far he has met or exceeded most of my expectations.  However, one season of non losing baseball doesn't warrant a Statue at OPACY.  It's what happens here forward that will determine his legacy, not that he did well while accumulating high draft picks.

As a purely singular one off, yes I would trade the farm for a WS title.  But in a singular one off, I would trade waiting 2-3 more years for multiple WS.  The truth is, even if you are good it is hard to win one much less multiple.  And the teams that have won multiple WS or at least been in multiple WS have taken a path similar to the one the O's are on now.

The truth is, anyone can make a living bashing the O's.  They have been easy to bash for the better part of a quarter century.  I am going to remain a bit more neutral to the O's and Elias.  Cautiously optimistic.  And I don't really worry about trading 12-18 years of potential for 2 years of good because, there is already ample evidence that says Elias wont do that today.

Of course you will say he only cares about the ranking of his farm.  That's a good line, but Elias knows that baseball people will judge him on success of the team, not that he took several years of being terrible to become one of the best farms in the land.  Just as he knows that baseball people will understand why every move should not be designed to impress someone who thinks winning baseball decisions are easy.

What I find funny is how people go so crazy to defend Elias and what the Os are doing and then when we get into these discussions, the doubt creeps in.

The same people that want to gush over Elias for building the system so quick turn around and doubt that he can keep doing it. It just doesn’t make sense and the arguments lack consistency.

I think we could trade half of our top 10, win more now and be a top half farm system within 2 years. I have confidence in them to build. The international program is only getting better.

They are developing well. They can always trade some vets later and get prospects. 
 

And btw, acting like we can’t win multiple titles if we trade away some prospects is just an awful stance to take. 
 

Oh and yes, plenty of teams trade prospects for talent. Plenty of teams graduate and lose talent. Plenty of those teams win a lot, draft late in the first round  and continue to churn out excellent systems and players.

 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, NCRaven said:

I generally agree with the thought, but wondered about the word "Lots."  Over the past 20 seasons 4 teams have won multiple World Series.  So, they certainly seemed able to maintain a good pipeline.  Boston won 4, San Fran won 3, St. Louis won 2 (and appeared in 2 others), and Houston won 2  (and appeared in 3 others).  Additionally, Philly and the Dodgers won 1 and appeared in 2 others, while KC won 1 and appeared in another.  So, just looking at that narrow approach, without looking at roster construction and how the pipeline contributed.  That's 7 teams that were able to maintain or improve after appearing in or winning a World Series.

I think "lots", in this context, really isn't that far off the mark.  7 out of 30 might not be lots, but it really is a pretty strong number, IMO.

And that doesn’t include the teams that win a lot and just haven’t gotten there, like Tampa and Cleveland..and even Oakland until the last few years.

[foxfield]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What I find funny is how people go so crazy to defend Elias and what the Os are doing and then when we get into these discussions, the doubt creeps in.

The same people that want to gush over Elias for building the system so quick turn around and doubt that he can keep doing it. It just doesn’t make sense and the arguments lack consistency.

I think we could trade half of our top 10, win more now and be a top half farm system within 2 years. I have confidence in them to build. The international program is only getting better.

They are developing well. They can always trade some vets later and get prospects. 
 

And btw, acting like we can’t win multiple titles if we trade away some prospects is just an awful stance to take. 
 

Oh and yes, plenty of teams trade prospects for talent. Plenty of teams graduate and lose talent. Plenty of those teams win a lot, draft late in the first round  and continue to churn out excellent systems and players.

 

Sure. But you are changing the conversation. I expressed doubt and I made no defense of Elias. I simply said he would ultimately be judged by wins in the big league. 

[NCRaven]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And that doesn’t include the teams that win a lot and just haven’t gotten there, like Tampa and Cleveland..and even Oakland until the last few years.

Cleveland (2016) and Tampa Bay (2020) each made it and lost one time in the last 20 years.  Didn't quite meet my threshhold.  I consider them consistently good but not championship caliber teams.

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Sure. But you are changing the conversation. I expressed doubt and I made no defense of Elias. I simply said he would ultimately be judged by wins in the big league. 

I’m not Changing anything.

This team will continue to produce high level farm systems as long as Elias is here, even if they trade several prospects. They may drop back temporarily but it won’t take long and guess what, if they do that and do drop back, chances are they are winning at the ML level and that is what actually matters.

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

You didn't answer the question.

You just want to make statements not ask questions