What is the real reason for our off season?

[eddie83]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, the PR is that they tell people it’s not hurt the future or something like that.

They are lying to us. It’s a complete fabrication of things.

Im actually ok with the payroll this year (and knowing they likely add a little more).  It’s how they are spending it and they won’t spend it more long term because of ownership.

As I said in another thread, the only acceptable reason is selling the team. That’s it. I would gladly punt an offseason to get rid of this family. 

I think John Angelos is here until his father passes and then who knows how long it takes to work itself out. 

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, jrobb21613 said:

Angelos is not going to spend millions of dollars on long term contracts on the top tier guys and I can’t say I blame him many of those contracts if not all were ludicrous. 
 

As far as the mid tier FA while certainly more reasonable many we’re still multi year deals and still quite expensive. I believe Elias believes in our guys and believes he can get similar production from guys already on the roster or on the way and at a fraction of the cost. 
 

I would be curious to hear Sig’s take on the Gibson, Frazier and minor league signings. Is there something him and his team see that leads them to believe we can get better production out of those guys.

Obviously they aren't.

That's the market.  That's the cost of doing business.

I went to the store this morning.

I didn't say the price of these eggs is ludicrous, even if it has doubled in the last couple of years.

I needed eggs so I bought eggs.

No reason to think eggs are going to cost any less the next time I go to the store and while I can use an egg substitute it isn't as good and it's a lot more work.

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Obviously they aren't.

That's the market.  That's the cost of doing business.

I went to the store this morning.

I didn't say the price of these eggs is ludicrous, even if it has doubled in the last couple of years.

I needed eggs so I bought eggs.

No reason to think eggs are going to cost any less the next time I go to the store and while I can use an egg substitute it isn't as good and it's a lot more work.

Umm maybe shopping for ultra organic imported eggs at Whole Foods versus eggs at Food City.  
 

Or growing one’s own… on the farm.  

Edited December 29, 2022 by tntoriole

[jrobb21613]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Obviously they aren't.

That's the market.  That's the cost of doing business.

I went to the store this morning.

I didn't say the price of these eggs is ludicrous, even if it has doubled in the last couple of years.

I needed eggs so I bought eggs.

No reason to think eggs are going to cost any less the next time I go to the store and while I can use an egg substitute it isn't as good and it's a lot more work.

Yeah but we already got eggs. Might not be grade A but we got them.

[Since1984]

28 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

….

As I said in another thread, the only acceptable reason is selling the team. That’s it. I would gladly punt an offseason to get rid of this family. 

Have wondered about this a number of times this off-season. How much money has the ownership group pocketed the last several years. Could this add up to the group keeping the team, instead. That scares me, since it could take another several offseason’s like this

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Since1984 said:

Have wondered about this a number of times this off-season. How much money has the ownership group pocketed the last several years. Could this add up to the group keeping the team, instead. That scares me, since it could take another several offseason’s like this

That's been my take.

At least until they get hit with the inheritance tax.

[sportsfan8703]

Elias needs to show that he can acquire pitching other than low/no risk type moves like waiver claims and sell off type of trades. Grow the bats, buy the arms. If we’re not going to draft pitching then where is it coming from?  Eventually Elias has to take some sort of a risk. 

[NCRaven]

Comparing free agency to food shopping is starting to sound ridiculous.  Yeah, it’s just like buying eggs.  If eggs cost $300 million over 12 years.

Edited December 29, 2022 by NCRaven

[AnythingO's]

Year	Revenue	Salaries	Payroll+Exp	Rev-Exp	Op Income	Op Cost
2014	245	110	122	123	31.4	91.6
2015	239	118.9	137	102	8.8	93.2
2016	253	147.7	162	91	-2.1	93.1
2017	252	164.3	183	69	-26	95
2018	251	143	161	90	-6.5	96.5
2019	256	61.1	103	153	57	96
2020	115	23.9	43	72	-23	95
2021	251	45.7	66	185	83	102

I thought I would try to "estimate" the cost of doing business, i.e. Operating Cost. It turns out it is remarkably consistent. To determine what the Payroll + Expenses can be you need to work backwards from Revenue and Operating Cost, it's in the $150 M range (ignoring 2020). Differences between Salaries and Payroll+Expenses is generally in the $15-20 M range but was >$40 M in 2019, don't know why. Difference between Revenue-Exp and Op Income (Profit) is Op Cost. Looks like Payroll + Expenses needs to be about $125-$135 M to be sustainable so salaries in the $110-120 M range until revenue rises.

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

Sure, it could be a pattern. 
 

I do genuinely think Elias does not believe the club is at it’s peak. Does that mean they will be more aggressive in terms of money when they are? Time will tell. 

 

This is silly.  He shouldn't be waiting for "at its peak." 

Oftentimes, you don't know when something has been at its peak until the moment has passed.  

 

1 hour ago, LA2 said:

In sighing relief or putrid scorn?

 

Both.

[eddie83]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

This is silly.  He shouldn't be waiting for "at its peak." 

Oftentimes, you don't know when something has been at its peak until the moment has passed.  

 

 

Both.

If he signs Bassitt and it doesn’t work does ownership let him go after other players via FA? 
 

I’m not saying they should wait. 

[sportsfan8703]

The liftoff comment worries me because for a numbers FO, they underestimated the market big time.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

 

I believe Elias is looking for better performance from a full year of Adley, a full year of Gunnar and the debut of Grayson Rodriguez and whatever innings he can provide.  Gibson might do a Lyles impression, Frazier is better than Odor (which is a low bar to hurdle, he's still not worth 8 million), McCann is a better backup catcher than Chirinos (another low bar to hurdle) and Givens should be a solid bullpen piece.

But they're banking on the real improvement coming from 2nd year players and rookies which is a dicey proposition.  It could work well, it could fail miserably.  It's a pretty pathetic overall approach though, there were free agents that could have bolstered the rotation and it's terrible that we weren't ever in the running for them.

I basically made these same points on 105.7 yesterday. We have treaded water at best so far this offseason and missed out on several starting pitchers that could have improved the team. But, there's still the trade market in January and into early February as the key FA pieces have fallen into place.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

He may be the right guy to build a system and a foundation but he’s not the right guy to finish the job.

 

This is what we still need to find out. Can Elias "finish the job" and make this team a perennial playoff contender or is his strength and rebuilding the scouting, drafting and development portions of an organizations? 

I'm remaining hopeful we'll see him pull off a deal in the next six weeks that will make us feel better about that going into the regular season with an actual contender. But no matter what anyone says, until Elias has sustained success at the major league level, he hasn't finished the job.

[Sports Guy]

21 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

If he signs Bassitt and it doesn’t work does ownership let him go after other players via FA? 
 

I’m not saying they should wait. 

But this is the issue with the ownership. I agree that this could be an issue. I have said it many times this offseason. 
 

But that’s why all of this “we don’t want to hurt the long term” stuff is complete bs. It’s a lie. It’s PR to cover up the fact that the ownership group doesn’t want to spend money long term.

JA said it this offseason. He essentially said when they start to make more money, they will jump up the payroll. He isn’t willing to do it before and We all know they look at MASN as a different entity.