Roch's Latest... Speculation about Dunn?

[Lucky Jim]

What I wonder is he willing to forget the OF and play 1st and DH?

He's worse at 1B!

[Mackus]

But, Dunn has played all of his career on NL teams. Given him the chance to play less LF and more DH don't you think he won't commit as much errors?

He's still the same awfulness out there for every play he's out there. Errors are secondary in this discussion, btw. He's bad because of the balls he doesn't get to that everyone else gets to easily much moreso than the balls he gets to and botches.

Of course he'll cumulatively be less costly out there if he plays out there a lot less. The problem is he doesn't want to play out there a lot less. He's insisting on being a regular LF. That's no good.

A couple games here and there isn't a problem. But counting on him for 1/2 a season's worth of games in the field is a bad plan.

[trueoriolesfan]

He's worse at 1B!

Ight I give up it was just a thought that if we add that we will let him play field here and there he might budge a little and ink here.

[RShack]

This could be a Steve Phillips sound bite.

I wish you'd have told me that ahead of time ;-)

[Mackus]

Well, if they keep track of how the ball is hit and where it goes, and if Nick gets to less of them than somebody else, then how does our observation of (and preference for) Nick provide better information?

I doubt the consistency of the measurements across the board.

Someone has to decide if a ball is a line drive or a fly ball. Or if it goes 20 feet from the foul line or 30 feet. Someone has to keep track of where Markakis is positioned every play.

Until they essentially have a timer on every ball that is hit, from when it hits the bat, to when it hits the ground, to when the fielder gets to it, and exactly how far both the ball and fielder traveled, and (for infield) how long it takes to throw and if the throw was clean or scooped, there are always going to be inconsistencies with defensive stats. I just feel that the Fielding Bible has more of these inconsistencies with what I think is right than some other rating systems I've seen out there. Its obviously far better than nothing, but not good enough for me to consider it gospel (pun intended!). I still factor in my own opinions when I feel I have enough justification to do so.

[RShack]

I doubt the consistency of the measurements across the board.

Someone has to decide if a ball is a line drive or a fly ball.

Or if it goes 20 feet from the foul line or 30 feet.

I believe they have automated aids that help govern that.

It's not like, "Oh, well, I sorta feel like that ball is 20 feet from the line".

Someone has to keep track of where Markakis is positioned every play.

No they don't. Doesn't matter where he stands. The only thing that matters is what he gets to vs. what he doesn't.

Where he stands is up to him. It has no effect on their scoring. For each ball hit to RF-World, either he gets it or he doesn't.

[Mackus]

No they don't. Doesn't matter where he stands. The only thing that matters is what he gets to vs. what he doesn't.

Where he stands is up to him. It has no effect on their scoring. For each ball hit to RF-World, either he gets it or he doesn't.

Yes they do, because different teams have their players stand in different places. I'm not saying Trembley is out there waiving Markakis around, but they have an idea of how to play each opposing hitter. Its not Markakis' fault if the team is playing Nick Punto shallow and he happens to hit one that lands 20 feet in front of the warning track.

Just as Brian Roberts shouldn't get extra credit for fielding a ground ball 30 feet deep into RF and throwing out David Ortiz.

This stuff probably all comes close to evening out over the course of the season, but maybe it doesn't.

[RHall31]

Its still McPhail's fault! He needs to "sell" Dunn on how great it would be to DH at Camden Yards. Then he needs to overpay. Then get all the former

Oriole DH's from the past to call Dunn and......

[RShack]

Yes they do, because different teams have their players stand in different places. I'm not saying Trembley is out there waiving Markakis around, but they have an idea of how to play each opposing hitter. Its not Markakis' fault if the team is playing Nick Punto shallow and he happens to hit one that lands 20 feet in front of the warning track.

Just as Brian Roberts shouldn't get extra credit for fielding a ground ball 30 feet deep into RF and throwing out David Ortiz.

This stuff probably all comes close to evening out over the course of the season, but maybe it doesn't.

I'm not saying that positioning doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. It helps determine which balls you get to vs. which ones you don't.

But it doesn't matter in their scoring, and I agree with them that it should not.

All that matters is which plays get made vs. which ones don't. Then it all comes out in the wash.

So, if BRob stands in the right place and gets a guy out when other 2B-men don't, that's a + play.

But what matters is that he made the play, they don't care where he was standing.

Players and teams could learn something about how effective their positioning is by studying the detailed results of this scheme.

We don't get to see the details, but I bet the teams pay to see them.

How else could the guy make money doing this? It's v. labor intensive, he's gotta make a buck somehow.

[fdmstng99]

Does Dunn have any positives in playing the OF? Like a strong arm or an accurate arm? Anything?

I still would love to see Dunn play in Camden Yards.

[fdmstng99]

Also, it's easy for Dunn to essentially say, "I'm not interested" by insisting on playing the outfield.

I question any team that puts him in the outfield, frankly.

If we put him in the outfield will his bat make up for his glove?

[Moose Milligan]

Come on guys, be positive for once.

I mean, really. We haven't had the chance to make our WOW offer yet.

[El Gordo]

Yes they do, because different teams have their players stand in different places. I'm not saying Trembley is out there waiving Markakis around, but they have an idea of how to play each opposing hitter. Its not Markakis' fault if the team is playing Nick Punto shallow and he happens to hit one that lands 20 feet in front of the warning track.

Just as Brian Roberts shouldn't get extra credit for fielding a ground ball 30 feet deep into RF and throwing out David Ortiz.

This stuff probably all comes close to evening out over the course of the season, but maybe it doesn't.

The positioning thing can help as much as it can hurt. Look at Miggi e.g. He still ranks high as a SS because he plays back and in the hole and relies on his strong arm to make plays. He gets to more balls in the hole than almost any other SS. This out weighs the number of slow hit balls he doesn't make plays on, or the number of balls up the middle he doesn't reach. Or Cal as another example. I do agree that the categorizing of hard hit balls, slow hit balls, line drives, and fly balls, leaves cracks for plays and players to fall through, but by and large I think it is the best system going. Be interested in hearing what some of the other stat people think.

[trueoriolesfan]

Does Dunn have any positives in playing the OF? Like a strong arm or an accurate arm? Anything?

I still would love to see Dunn play in Camden Yards.

Wouldn't we all but who is going to budge Dunn or FO. My guess no one.

[Mackus]

But it doesn't matter in their scoring, and I agree with them that it should not.

All that matters is which plays get made vs. which ones don't. Then it all comes out in the wash.

So, if BRob stands in the right place and gets a guy out when other 2B don't, that's a + play.

But what matters is that he made the play, they don't care where he was standing.

I disagree with this completely.

Positioning is as much a function of the team's manager as it is of each player. The best fielders are the ones with the most range, the surest hands, and the best arms. If one of their managers has the RF stand on the foul line, it doesn't mean he's a crappy RF, just that his manager is being ridiculous. I think a lot of the positioning things will even out, but not all of them. It should be taken into account.