Maybe Frazier can play

[AnythingO's]

In the same vein as Urias, Gunner, Vavra "could" play 1B sure, but Adley is probably already a better 1B than they are. If Mounty crashes or is hurt, a replacement will be needed for the long term IMHO.

[Too Tall]

 Redundant is becoming redundant. Man, spring training can't start soon enough. 

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

I think we will find that Westburg doesn't have near the range of Mateo.  And that would hurt the pitchers.  I would rank the SS defensive as Mateo, Gunnar, Ortiz and then Westburg.

From the BA write up on Ortiz: “If Gunnar Henderson ends up at third base, it may be because Ortiz is an even better shortstop defensively.”

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

From the BA write up on Ortiz: “If Gunnar Henderson ends up at third base, it may be because Ortiz is an even better shortstop defensively.”

Depends on what you mean by better.   Ortiz is probably more sure handed and will make less errors.   But Gunnar probably has more range than Ortiz.   Range will be important next season with the infield rule changes.

But then again that is why I think there will be an evaluation in ST to see who can do what.

Edited January 21, 2023 by wildcard

[wildcard]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

And here we are in the offseason where it's so boring, we have to bring up a conversation that we had beaten the horse to a bloody pulp!

As the owner of this place, I say bravo @wildcard!

At the end of the day, we all hope he does well now regardless of how we feel about the deal.

Saying that, if Westburg and/or Ortiz tear it up in AAA for the first two months, the conversation will get quite loud once again. 

Regardless, I think everyone expects him to be a good defender. That was never in question.

In the OP I say: Maybe he can play depending on how much he has left.   I say that because Baseball Savant says he lost speed last season which could equate to range.

So I think Frazier being a "good defender" is in a "prove it" situation this spring.

[Sydnor]

15 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Depends on what you mean by better.   Ortiz is probably more sure handed and will make less errors.   But Gunnar probably has more range than Ortiz.   Range will be important next season with the infield rule changes.

But then again that is why I think there will be an evaluation in ST to see who can do what.

Why do you think Gunnar has more range than Ortiz at SS? Tony’s said the following about Ortiz:

Defensively, he’s easily the best defensive shortstop in the system who is major league ready with the glove. He has plus range, very good hands, turns the double play well, has great baseball instincts, and a solid average major league shortstop arm. 

In contrast, he said that Gunnar is more well-suited for 3rd (which I agree with, not that my opinion matters):

Defensively, he also made gains cutting down his errors at both shortstop and particularly at 3B where he started to get more playing time as he moved up the chain. He has good hands, solid quickness, and a strong accurate arm from both SS and 3B, but looks more well suited for 3B than SS. While he does have the current quickness to play shortstop, as he continues to gain weight and get bigger as he matures, third base will be where he ends up and should be a plus defensive 3B when it’s all said and done.

I’ve noticed Henderson look better on plays up the middle versus in the hole at SS.

[wildcard]

19 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

Why do you think Gunnar has more range than Ortiz at SS? Tony’s said the following about Ortiz:

Defensively, he’s easily the best defensive shortstop in the system who is major league ready with the glove. He has plus range, very good hands, turns the double play well, has great baseball instincts, and a solid average major league shortstop arm. 

In contrast, he said that Gunnar is more well-suited for 3rd (which I agree with, not that my opinion matters):

Defensively, he also made gains cutting down his errors at both shortstop and particularly at 3B where he started to get more playing time as he moved up the chain. He has good hands, solid quickness, and a strong accurate arm from both SS and 3B, but looks more well suited for 3B than SS. While he does have the current quickness to play shortstop, as he continues to gain weight and get bigger as he matures, third base will be where he ends up and should be a plus defensive 3B when it’s all said and done.

I’ve noticed Henderson look better on plays up the middle versus in the hole at SS.

Gunnar is 6'2 and Ortiz is 5'11".  Potentially Gunnar makes longer strides.   

Comparing  SS range in the minors the best we have is Range Factor (RF). Gunnar's RF last year in the minors was 4.08 and his career RF is 4.09 at SS.   Ortiz  RF was 3.92 last year and his career RF is 3.80 at SS.

Ortiz is more sure handed than Gunnar.

I agree that over time Gunnar will probably slow down but for right now I don't think that is true.

So you ask why.  That is why.   But Tony is better at player evaluation than I am.   I don't take what Tony said to be direct comparison of the two.  If Tony values fielding percentage he could easily pick Ortiz  over Gunnar's range.

Edited January 21, 2023 by wildcard

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Gunnar is 6'2 and Ortiz is 5'11".  Potentially Gunnar makes longer strides.   

Comparing  SS range in the minors the best we have is Range Factor (RF). Gunnar's RF last year in the minors was 4.08 and his career RF is 4.09 at SS.   Ortiz  RF was 3.92 last year and his career RF is 3.80 at SS.

Ortiz is more sure handed than Gunnar.

I agree that over time Gunnar will probably slow down but for right now I don't think that is true.

So you ask why.  That is why.   But Tony is better at player evaluation than I am.   I don't take what Tony said to be direct comparison of the two.  If Tony values fielding percentage he could easily pick Ortiz  over Gunnar's range.

Range factor isn’t very reliable.  For anyone who gets BA, what grades did Gunnar get for glove and arm?  Ortiz was 60 and 55.   

I’ve just heard too many great things about Ortiz’s defense to believe Gunnar is the better defender at SS.  But I do believe Gunnar has the stronger arm and would be very good at SS if the O’s choose to put him there.  
 

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Range factor isn’t very reliable.  For anyone who gets BA, what grades did Gunnar get for glove and arm?  Ortiz was 60 and 55.   

I’ve just heard too many great things about Ortiz’s defense to believe Gunnar is the better defender at SS.  But I do believe Gunnar has the stronger arm and would be very good at SS if the O’s choose to put him there.  
 

What is better than Range Factor to compare minor league defense?

[Frobby]

47 minutes ago, wildcard said:

What is better than Range Factor to compare minor league defense?

Scouting reports.  

[wildcard]

25 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Scouting reports.  

So people's opinions.

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

So people's opinions.

Not all people.  

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

Depends on what you mean by better.   Ortiz is probably more sure handed and will make less errors.   But Gunnar probably has more range than Ortiz.   Range will be important next season with the infield rule changes.

But then again that is why I think there will be an evaluation in ST to see who can do what.

Gunnar has a better arm.  Ortiz is the better overall defender.  

[Tony-OH]

20 hours ago, wildcard said:

In the OP I say: Maybe he can play depending on how much he has left.   I say that because Baseball Savant says he lost speed last season which could equate to range.

So I think Frazier being a "good defender" is in a "prove it" situation this spring.

I think everything about Frazier is prove it as well, but if there's one thing I expect is for his defense to still be above average. At the end of the day, "We shall see!"

Regardless, if Westburg is tearing up AAA and playing a decent 2B (where he should be getting most of his time this up coming season) the Frazier signing will still look questionable, especially for the dollar amount. 

[wildcard]

47 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think everything about Frazier is prove it as well, but if there's one thing I expect is for his defense to still be above average. At the end of the day, "We shall see!"

Regardless, if Westburg is tearing up AAA and playing a decent 2B (where he should be getting most of his time this up coming season) the Frazier signing will still look questionable, especially for the dollar amount. 

It just feeling like a contender is going to lose a 2B to injury and come knocking at the O's door.   And Elias will trade Frazier, who is on a one year contract, for a good prospect.   

Just another way for Elias to stack talent up in the organization.