Cole Irvin 2023

[24fps]

5 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I felt the same thing. He was even better in the rain shortened start as well.

I don't think Elias traded away a quality prospect for Irvin just to punt on him at the first sign of adversity. He's going to really try to get value out of him.

The O's could probably do a lot worse than Cole Irvin as a fifth starter as long as they don't expect anything more.  Hernaiz was a quality prospect, but he was also completely superfluous.  Even if Irvin completely implodes, I doubt Elias will have any regret whatsoever.

Irvin is durable and doesn't reach arb 1 until next season.  That's plenty enough right there for an Angelos-owned team to work with, right?

[bluedog]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Except it's not.

You decided to bring a dictionary in and they sided with my opinion.

Once again you didn't just say give up, you said give up on.  Different thing.  Now if you want to fault me for my misplacing a quotation mark, sure.  I didn't expect anyone to die on this hill.

There are multiple definitions of "give up on". I cited two (relinquishing ownership or control) which support my statement. You found an alternative definition you like and declared victory. Both definitions are accurate.

I posted the original statement. I used "give up on" in the context I meant which was losing ownership or control. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that what I said was correct to me, given my interpretation of the phrase.

If you were interested in understanding what I meant instead of just arguing semantics, we could have an interesting conversation about something instead of this useless back and forth. But I've never seen you respond to any of my posts where you aren't being negative or argumentative.

[bluedog]

5 minutes ago, 24fps said:

The O's could probably do a lot worse than Cole Irvin as a fifth starter as long as they don't expect anything more.  Hernaiz was a quality prospect, but he was also completely superfluous.  Even if Irvin completely implodes, I doubt Elias will have any regret whatsoever.

Irvin is durable and doesn't reach arb 1 until next season.  That's plenty enough right there for an Angelos-owned team to work with, right?

Agree. I wonder if Irvin is more valuable in a trade now than Hernaiz? Maybe Elias felt that he could acquire Irvin, use him for a time, and then include him in a trade package to someone else and get roughly the same as just including Hernaiz in the same trade? Maybe if Irvin pitches well for the O's he'd have even more trade value than Hernaiz?

[Bemorewins]

13 minutes ago, wildcard said:

My orange colored glasses told me that Irvin was the 7th best starter on the O's staff and just pitching depth.  That had some tell me I was crazy and he would pitch 180 innings  for the O's this year.  So I call them as I see them.

Is Hall concerning.  Of course.   But I think he was changing from a thrower to the pitcher this spring.  Probably because he did not have the 97 mph fastball has had to figure out how to get batters out.

If his problem really is an injury and he gets healthy most fans and rating services will jump back on his band wagon.  I am impressed with his stuff,  hopeful for his control and command.   So I am still on his band wagon.

 

understood.

Even if he get's back to what he was last year, I don't see him regaining any prospect status. Usually when guys get to 25 they are not really considered prospect because that is considered the potential beginning of prime years.

In most list that I found, I only saw 1 or 2 guys on top 100 prospect list currently who are 25. And those guys are in the Majors and getting ready to graduate off the list. Next season Hall will turn 26 during the season.

[wildcard]

15 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

understood.

Even if he get's back to what he was last year, I don't see him regaining any prospect status. Usually when guys get to 25 they are not really considered prospect because that is considered the potential beginning of prime years.

In most list that I found, I only saw 1 or 2 guys on top 100 prospect list currently who are 25. And those guys are in the Majors and getting ready to graduate off the list. Next season Hall will turn 26 during the season.

Man are you stretching.   He is 24.   And next year he will not be 26 until Sept.   

Someday I will be 100 if I living that long but right now I am not.

[HelenaEngineer]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Irvin pitched a nice game yesterday.  It’s interesting that Hyde chose to pull him after 82 pitches.   It certainly worked out. 

Since returning from the minors, Irvin has posted a 3.44 ERA.  That’ll work.  
 

The results were nice, but I would quibble with the claim that he pitched a nice game. I thought the 1 run allowed in 5 innings was far more a result of good fortune that good pitching. He allowed 6 hits to go with 3 walks and a HP in those 5 innings. While he allowed a slugging percentage of .400, the expected slugging percentage was .692.  He recorded multiple outs on rockets hit over 100 mph and had 8 LOB in those 5 innings.

That kind of outing could just as easily have been 6 runs allowed in 2.1 innings. In terms of average exit velocity and expected slugging, it was his worst start of the year. I would give him another start, but after this one, I'll be more concerned about the next one than I was about this one. I have to think Hyde was happy to bring out the hook and be thankful that he got away with 5 innings and no serious damage.

[Frobby]

27 minutes ago, HelenaEngineer said:

The results were nice, but I would quibble with the claim that he pitched a nice game. I thought the 1 run allowed in 5 innings was far more a result of good fortune that good pitching. He allowed 6 hits to go with 3 walks and a HP in those 5 innings. While he allowed a slugging percentage of .400, the expected slugging percentage was .692.  He recorded multiple outs on rockets hit over 100 mph and had 8 LOB in those 5 innings.

That kind of outing could just as easily have been 6 runs allowed in 2.1 innings. In terms of average exit velocity and expected slugging, it was his worst start of the year. I would give him another start, but after this one, I'll be more concerned about the next one than I was about this one. I have to think Hyde was happy to bring out the hook and be thankful that he got away with 5 innings and no serious damage.

Fair enough.  Like most of America, I was unable to watch because the game was on Peacock (and, I’d forgotten about the early start). By the time I tuned into my radio, it was the 6th inning. 

[TheWall]

1 hour ago, bluedog said:

There are multiple definitions of "give up on". I cited two (relinquishing ownership or control) which support my statement. You found an alternative definition you like and declared victory. Both definitions are accurate.

I posted the original statement. I used "give up on" in the context I meant which was losing ownership or control. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that what I said was correct to me, given my interpretation of the phrase.

If you were interested in understanding what I meant instead of just arguing semantics, we could have an interesting conversation about something instead of this useless back and forth. But I've never seen you respond to any of my posts where you aren't being negative or argumentative.

Your point was that you were frustrated that they gave up Hader and he ended up being great. The way you phrased it implied that the Orioles didn't think he was going to be good, but in reality they traded him for Bud Norris because they needed another SP to win the division / make the ALCS the following year. It's very likely the Orioles believed in his talent.

The Arrieta situation is obviously frustrating, but I mostly place the blame on the pitching coaches rather than the decision to move on when we did. At the time he was out of options and he wasn't helping a team that was on it's way to the playoffs. They needed to move him. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, TheWall said:

Your point was that you were frustrated that they gave up Hader and he ended up being great. The way you phrased it implied that the Orioles didn't think he was going to be good, but in reality they traded him for Bud Norris because they needed another SP to win the division / make the ALCS the following year. It's very likely the Orioles believed in his talent.

The Arrieta situation is obviously frustrating, but I mostly place the blame on the pitching coaches rather than the decision to move on when we did. At the time he was out of options and he wasn't helping a team that was on it's way to the playoffs. They needed to move him. 

I place some of the blame on Arrieta.  He seemed really difficult to work with.

[TheWall]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I place some of the blame on Arrieta.  He seemed really difficult to work with.

Totally possible, but Jake wasn't the only one that has been critical of the coaching. Britton had some pretty scathing comments and it's absurd we didn't let Arrieta use his cutter. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, TheWall said:

Totally possible, but Jake wasn't the only one that has been critical of the coaching. Britton had some pretty scathing comments and it's absurd we didn't let Arrieta use his cutter. 

Just some of the blame, not all and honestly not a majority.

[Too Tall]

1 hour ago, HelenaEngineer said:

The results were nice, but I would quibble with the claim that he pitched a nice game. I thought the 1 run allowed in 5 innings was far more a result of good fortune that good pitching. He allowed 6 hits to go with 3 walks and a HP in those 5 innings. While he allowed a slugging percentage of .400, the expected slugging percentage was .692.  He recorded multiple outs on rockets hit over 100 mph and had 8 LOB in those 5 innings.

That kind of outing could just as easily have been 6 runs allowed in 2.1 innings. In terms of average exit velocity and expected slugging, it was his worst start of the year. I would give him another start, but after this one, I'll be more concerned about the next one than I was about this one. I have to think Hyde was happy to bring out the hook and be thankful that he got away with 5 innings and no serious damage.

To me, this is a very accurate take. For a pitcher who has been labeled as a control/command lefty, it wasn't there yesterday. Sometimes you get away with an outing and that's my take after watching Irvin's five yesterday. Still waiting to see him pitch as advertised!

[wildcard]

22 minutes ago, TheWall said:

Your point was that you were frustrated that they gave up Hader and he ended up being great. The way you phrased it implied that the Orioles didn't think he was going to be good, but in reality they traded him for Bud Norris because they needed another SP to win the division / make the ALCS the following year. It's very likely the Orioles believed in his talent.

The Arrieta situation is obviously frustrating, but I mostly place the blame on the pitching coaches rather than the decision to move on when we did. At the time he was out of options and he wasn't helping a team that was on it's way to the playoffs. They needed to move him. 

This will likely  happen to Elias also.   He trades Stowers, Santander, Norby, etc.....    These guys can go on to have good careers.    It happens.

[TheWall]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

This will likely  happen to Elias also.   He trades Stowers, Santander, Norby, etc.....    These guys can go on to have good careers.    It happens.

I hope some of them go on to have good careers elsewhere. It shows we've done a good job drafting / evaluating talent. Obviously, I hope we keep the right guys, but it won't be a bad thing if we trade Norby or Stowers and they end up being really good in the long run. I just hope we get good value when we move some of our prospects. 

[FlipTheBird]

5 hours ago, TheWall said:

I hope some of them go on to have good careers elsewhere. It shows we've done a good job drafting / evaluating talent. Obviously, I hope we keep the right guys, but it won't be a bad thing if we trade Norby or Stowers and they end up being really good in the long run. I just hope we get good value when we move some of our prospects. 

That last line is the important part. Some of the guys we ship off - even some of the guys that aren’t as heralded right now - will have decent careers. It’s just how it goes. You just have to hope that what you got in return was worth it.