The 2023 attendance thread

[SunnysideOsFan]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I know some people don't want to acknowledge this, but again, Baltimore's current reputation with a lot of people who don't live in the city hurts the attendance. Even with all the winning, some fans still don't feel safe in Baltimore and before you start telling me all the reasons why it's safe, I'm just telling you what I still hear quite often. 

Just to make sure this does not get political, I'm just going to leave it at that.

I'm doubtful the Orioles will ever cross the 2.75 million point again no matter good they become because of the city's reputation, the affordability of big screen high definition televisions, and other entertainment options available via the internet. 

Now, could much needed upgrades to the stadiums, better close parking options, and better close eating, entertainment, and bar areas push it back over that if the team continues to win, perhaps. 

Either way, the attendance this year wasn't that bad overall considering where this team has come from over the last two seasons. But it's going to take some sustained winning and some fan friendly upgrades to the stadium and surrounding area to really bump the totals back up significantly past 2.5 million. 

 

 

I don’t doubt this and I’ve heard similar things from suburban dwellers, particularly those in Anne Arundel County. But I do wonder why St. Louis is able to draw so much stronger, when it suffers from similar crime and city image problems, and is of a similar size metro area?

[TonySoprano]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I know some people don't want to acknowledge this, but again, Baltimore's current reputation with a lot of people who don't live in the city hurts the attendance. Even with all the winning, some fans still don't feel safe in Baltimore and before you start telling me all the reasons why it's safe, I'm just telling you what I still hear quite often. 

Harborplace pavillions are being torn down.   Of course the current reputation is to blame.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, SunnysideOsFan said:

I don’t doubt this and I’ve heard similar things from suburban dwellers, particularly those in Anne Arundel County. But I do wonder why St. Louis is able to draw so much stronger, when it suffers from similar crime and city image problems, and is of a similar size metro area?

Well they don't have the NFL anymore and St. Louis is a baseball town first.

Saying that, while St. Louis has it problems like most major cities in America, I think the Freddy Gray riots, especially when they attacked baseball fans at Pickles for no reason, certainly sticks in people's minds. Md's laws that basically make 13 year olds or younger in the State has no surprisingly seen a huge spike in crimes by 13 year old and younger. This has become an even bigger problem in the city so I think there is a portion of the fan base that just rather stay at home or go to the local sports bar for that "fan" experience. 

Now winning will convince some to come back, and maybe a revitalized inner harbor will to, especially if the city can hire and keep enough police officers to make that area to appear safe. But not surprisingly, after being vilified by govt officials and attacked by the DA at every chance while having legislatures take away their protections from being sued by the public, it's getting harder and harder to hire and keep police officers all over the state, but Baltimore in particular is so under manned it's not funny.

I can remember back in the day going to an Orioles game and walking back to Little Italy where I used to park and I would see a cop on about every few blocks and patrolling the inner harbor. Now you're lucky if you see a few directing traffic. 

Again, these are just things I've observed or know about it or have head from other people. 

I'm going to game two of the ALDS with my son.

 

[CallMeBrooksie]

1 hour ago, SunnysideOsFan said:

I don’t doubt this and I’ve heard similar things from suburban dwellers, particularly those in Anne Arundel County. But I do wonder why St. Louis is able to draw so much stronger, when it suffers from similar crime and city image problems, and is of a similar size metro area?

Having a coherent transit system would certainly help more people, like said suburban dwellers, come to more games. Downtown Baltimore certainly has some modernizing to do in this area where not much has been invested in decades. While St. Louis is in a similar boat in terms of a car-centric city, it appears that their MetroLink light rail performs far better than Baltimore's RailLink Light Rail for whatever reason, despite the Baltimore version having much better headways (10 minutes on weekdays vs. 20 for St. Louis). Investing in Baltimore's transit network in a way that is coherent and provides a reliable level of service would make a difference in bringing folks back. Bringing night and weekend rail service to the MARC Camden Line (and perhaps even providing some reciprocity service into Northern Virginia's VRE stations: Is Maryland getting serious about MARC trains to Virginia? – Greater Greater Washington (ggwash.org) ??).  IMO being able to get from Alexandria/Fairfax to Camden Yards on one seat would be a nice little boost to fans in VA who can only ever come to weekend games because of car traffic (There are more of these fans than many people realize).

It was touched on earlier by Tony and others, but the vibe surrounding the stadium is DEAD. This was obviously not the case for the first 10-15 years that the park was opened, but it's certainly true now. Nothing much to do or see until you get the Aquarium-area, and even that neighborhood is becoming more of an attraction-desert by the day. Though I don't find it unsafe, there's definitely an eerie, abandoned-mall vibe (which reminds me, there's literally a huge abandoned shopping mall like 4 blocks from the stadium on the walk to the harbor).

Good news is that there are redevelopment wheels spinning on the Harbor Place re-imagining (Harborplace developer says iconic pavilions will be razed - The Baltimore Banner). But even that isn't enough... there needs to be a better vibe IN CLOSE to the ballpark. There needs to be more of a neighborhood feel with bars and eats and walkability. The city really screwed up when they let that Hilton get built right up against the stadium. What a missed opportunity and a vibe-destroyer (and from what I gather, the hotel itself is not much of a money-maker even in the good times (Baltimore's 10-year-old convention hotel finally makes a profit (baltimoresun.com) 

The future is moving away from car-use and car ownership in urban areas which require unsightly parking garages and wasteful parking lots to dominate the landscape, and more towards people-oriented places served by micro-mobility and transit. It's the difference between Fed Hill and Pratt Street. The Pratt Street corridor downtown is just a miserable place to be as a pedestrian, and that's a killer to the Game Day experience. When you survey the immediate neighborhood, there's no easy fix for this. St. Louis has at least made an attempt by investing in its "Ballpark Village" right next to the stadium to provide mixed-use amenities that people can enjoy before and after games. The Pickles/Sliders row has the right idea, but the scale is so small and then passed that it all just morphs into residential pigtown past MLK. I suppose Fed Hill is the Camden Yarks-equivalent of this, but that's a damn hike for most.

 

[RVAOsFan]

1 hour ago, SunnysideOsFan said:

I don’t doubt this and I’ve heard similar things from suburban dwellers, particularly those in Anne Arundel County. But I do wonder why St. Louis is able to draw so much stronger, when it suffers from similar crime and city image problems, and is of a similar size metro area?

About 10 years ago I lived outside of St Louis and attended many Cardinals games.  The area around the stadium is fine there are not any issues with crime.  The negative crime numbers you see associated with St Louis come primarily from East St Louis which is over the river about 10 miles away from the stadium.  As for big crowds at Cards games, that fan base is strong, they love the Cardinals.  They have awesome game day atmosphere at the bars downtown around the stadium before and after games.  They also (at least when I lived there) had different all inclusive seating sections in the stadium that included food and drinks, you could pick up those tickets for games during the week for about the cost of going out to dinner so why not just go to the ballpark for dinner. 

[Frobby]

19 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think the Freddy Gray riots, especially when they attacked baseball fans at Pickles for no reason, certainly sticks in people's minds.

 

Unfortunately I think this is true, which explains why attendance in 2016, in which the O’s made the wild card in a very tight race, was down about 100,000 from 2015, a year in which the O’s needed.to win their final 6 games just to reach .500.   The Freddy Gray riots were in April 2015, after fans had already bought their season tickets.   A lot of people did not renew that offseason and then walk-up wasn’t good in 2016 either, probably due to heightened safety concerns.  But I do think ticket sales next year might eclipse the 2015 total of  2.281 mm.   It will be close to that, I suspect.   It will help if the O’s make a deep run this October.  .  

[TonySoprano]

39 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Now winning will convince some to come back, and maybe a revitalized inner harbor will to, especially if the city can hire and keep enough police officers to make that area to appear safe. B

Quote

Revamping Harborplace will take millions in public and private investments and is expected to take five years to complete.

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/baltimore-harborplace-pavilions-will-be-torn-down/45399571#:~:text=The Harborplace pavilions on Light,its next chapter%2C made the

Johnny Angelos wants the next Inner Harbor to be immediately in the vicinity of the two stadiums, which isn't feasible either.    

When we go into Baltimore, it's Light Rail in, and then back home.   There was a time, we'd head to the Harbor, but that ended several years ago.  We wanted to go as a family in August.  The Light Rail barely made it into the City before it stopped.  There was a storm in the area three days prior, and they still hadn't cleared the tracks.   OK, everybody out, go walk over across the road to get on a bus which should take you the rest of the way.  Except it didn't, we got another 1/3 of the way there and then the bus broke down.    Time to call UBER.    By the time we got to the ballpark, it was over 90 aggravating minutes and after the first pitch, for a trip that generally takes 30 minutes.    We'll continue to make our family trek there next season, but there's a nice 75" HDTV in my basement.    

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by TonySoprano

[Going Underground]

19 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Having a coherent transit system would certainly help more people, like said suburban dwellers, come to more games. Downtown Baltimore certainly has some modernizing to do in this area where not much has been invested in decades. While St. Louis is in a similar boat in terms of a car-centric city, it appears that their MetroLink light rail performs far better than Baltimore's RailLink Light Rail for whatever reason, despite the Baltimore version having much better headways (10 minutes on weekdays vs. 20 for St. Louis). Investing in Baltimore's transit network in a way that is coherent and provides a reliable level of service would make a difference in bringing folks back. Bringing night and weekend rail service to the MARC Camden Line (and perhaps even providing some reciprocity service into Northern Virginia's VRE stations: Is Maryland getting serious about MARC trains to Virginia? – Greater Greater Washington (ggwash.org) ??).  IMO being able to get from Alexandria/Fairfax to Camden Yards on one seat would be a nice little boost to fans in VA who can only ever come to weekend games because of car traffic (There are more of these fans than many people realize).

It was touched on earlier by Tony and others, but the vibe surrounding the stadium is DEAD. This was obviously not the case for the first 10-15 years that the park was opened, but it's certainly true now. Nothing much to do or see until you get the Aquarium-area, and even that neighborhood is becoming more of an attraction-desert by the day. Though I don't find it unsafe, there's definitely an eerie, abandoned-mall vibe (which reminds me, there's literally a huge abandoned shopping mall like 4 blocks from the stadium on the walk to the harbor).

Good news is that there are redevelopment wheels spinning on the Harbor Place re-imagining (Harborplace developer says iconic pavilions will be razed - The Baltimore Banner). But even that isn't enough... there needs to be a better vibe IN CLOSE to the ballpark. There needs to be more of a neighborhood feel with bars and eats and walkability. The city really screwed up when they let that Hilton get built right up against the stadium. What a missed opportunity and a vibe-destroyer (and from what I gather, the hotel itself is not much of a money-maker even in the good times (Baltimore's 10-year-old convention hotel finally makes a profit (baltimoresun.com) 

The future is moving away from car-use and car ownership in urban areas which require unsightly parking garages and wasteful parking lots to dominate the landscape, and more towards people-oriented places served by micro-mobility and transit. It's the difference between Fed Hill and Pratt Street. The Pratt Street corridor downtown is just a miserable place to be as a pedestrian, and that's a killer to the Game Day experience. When you survey the immediate neighborhood, there's no easy fix for this. St. Louis has at least made an attempt by investing in its "Ballpark Village" right next to the stadium to provide mixed-use amenities that people can enjoy before and after games. The Pickles/Sliders row has the right idea, but the scale is so small and then passed that it all just morphs into residential pigtown past MLK. I suppose Fed Hill is the Camden Yarks-equivalent of this, but that's a damn hike for most.

 

The vibe went to Harbor East ,where the new restaurants and BGE and T. Rowe Price and others are moving. Most of the big employers have moved that way. Office space near the harbor is plentiful.  Top Golf near the stadium helps and some breweries around there helps. But the 6,000 seat concert hall ,the Paramount is half built with contractors suing and looking for new financial backing. A fiasco. The CFG arena is doing really well with a diverse lineup. Rams Head and Soundstage also do well 

[Going Underground]

8 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/baltimore-harborplace-pavilions-will-be-torn-down/45399571#:~:text=The Harborplace pavilions on Light,its next chapter%2C made the

Johnny Angelos wants the next Inner Harbor to be immediately in the vicinity of the two stadiums, which isn't feasible either.    

When we go into Baltimore, it's Light Rail in, and then back home.   There was a time, we'd head to the Harbor, but that ended several years ago.  We wanted to go as a family in August.  The Light Rail barely made it into the City before it stopped.  There was a storm in the area three days prior, and they still hadn't cleared the tracks.   OK, everybody out, go walk over across the road to get on a bus which should take you the rest of the way.  Except it didn't, we got another 1/3 of the way there and then the bus broke down.    Time to call UBER.    By the time we got to the ballpark, it was over 90 aggravating minutes and after the first pitch, for a trip that generally takes 30 minutes.    We'll continue to make our family trek there next season, but there's a nice 75" HDTV in my basement.    

 

Light rail is a joke from the North to Camden Yards. Always slow and schedule is a mystery  One car before and after the game, so people could not get to the game or leave right away. They know there is a baseball game at a certain time, it dosen't cost anything to put another car on. Worst run system I have been on .

Edited October 2, 2023 by Going Underground

[mojmann]

27 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Having a coherent transit system would certainly help more people, like said suburban dwellers, come to more games. Downtown Baltimore certainly has some modernizing to do in this area where not much has been invested in decades. While St. Louis is in a similar boat in terms of a car-centric city, it appears that their MetroLink light rail performs far better than Baltimore's RailLink Light Rail for whatever reason, despite the Baltimore version having much better headways (10 minutes on weekdays vs. 20 for St. Louis). Investing in Baltimore's transit network in a way that is coherent and provides a reliable level of service would make a difference in bringing folks back. Bringing night and weekend rail service to the MARC Camden Line (and perhaps even providing some reciprocity service into Northern Virginia's VRE stations: Is Maryland getting serious about MARC trains to Virginia? – Greater Greater Washington (ggwash.org) ??).  IMO being able to get from Alexandria/Fairfax to Camden Yards on one seat would be a nice little boost to fans in VA who can only ever come to weekend games because of car traffic (There are more of these fans than many people realize).

It was touched on earlier by Tony and others, but the vibe surrounding the stadium is DEAD. This was obviously not the case for the first 10-15 years that the park was opened, but it's certainly true now. Nothing much to do or see until you get the Aquarium-area, and even that neighborhood is becoming more of an attraction-desert by the day. Though I don't find it unsafe, there's definitely an eerie, abandoned-mall vibe (which reminds me, there's literally a huge abandoned shopping mall like 4 blocks from the stadium on the walk to the harbor).

Good news is that there are redevelopment wheels spinning on the Harbor Place re-imagining (Harborplace developer says iconic pavilions will be razed - The Baltimore Banner). But even that isn't enough... there needs to be a better vibe IN CLOSE to the ballpark. There needs to be more of a neighborhood feel with bars and eats and walkability. The city really screwed up when they let that Hilton get built right up against the stadium. What a missed opportunity and a vibe-destroyer (and from what I gather, the hotel itself is not much of a money-maker even in the good times (Baltimore's 10-year-old convention hotel finally makes a profit (baltimoresun.com) 

The future is moving away from car-use and car ownership in urban areas which require unsightly parking garages and wasteful parking lots to dominate the landscape, and more towards people-oriented places served by micro-mobility and transit. It's the difference between Fed Hill and Pratt Street. The Pratt Street corridor downtown is just a miserable place to be as a pedestrian, and that's a killer to the Game Day experience. When you survey the immediate neighborhood, there's no easy fix for this. St. Louis has at least made an attempt by investing in its "Ballpark Village" right next to the stadium to provide mixed-use amenities that people can enjoy before and after games. The Pickles/Sliders row has the right idea, but the scale is so small and then passed that it all just morphs into residential pigtown past MLK. I suppose Fed Hill is the Camden Yarks-equivalent of this, but that's a damn hike for most.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens around the stadium as part of the 30-year deal. Truthfully, everything has shifted east.  Most of the investment now is in Harbor East and Harbor Point. My wife recently hosted a convention in Harbor East and the people attending were blow away -- "this isn't what we expected in Baltimore. It's beautiful!" The challenge for the city is to attract that same kind of investment to the Arena/Lexington Market/Stadium areas. That's a big challenge. A winning team and more crowds should help that effort.  

 

[CallMeBrooksie]

4 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

The vibe went to Harbor East ,where the new restaurants and BGE and T. Rowe Price and others are moving. Most of the big employers have moved that way. Office space near the harbor is plentiful.  Top Golf near the stadium helps and some breweries around there helps. But the 6,000 seat concert hall ,the Paramount is half built with contractors suing and looking for new financial backing. A fiasco. The CFG arena is doing really well with a diverse lineup. Rams Head and Soundstage also do well 

Time for some office to vibe-space conversions. 

Also just poking around at the TopGolf/brewery district... looks decent for the Ravens crowd, but post-O's game you're looking at crossing an urban freeway sandwiched between a sea of parking lots. Not ideal.

[Going Underground]

2 minutes ago, mojmann said:

It will be interesting to see what happens around the stadium as part of the 30-year deal. Truthfully, everything has shifted east.  Most of the investment now is in Harbor East and Harbor Point. My wife recently hosted a convention in Harbor East and the people attending were blow away -- "this isn't what we expected in Baltimore. It's beautiful!" The challenge for the city is to attract that same kind of investment to the Arena/Lexington Market/Stadium areas. That's a big challenge. A winning team and more crowds should help that effort.  

 

CFG arena is doing suprising very well .Have had many concerts,etc .already with many more booked the rest of the year and next. From Tim McGraw to Andre Bocelli to Marie Carey and Teavis Scott  All with 99% private investment  

[Going Underground]

2 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Time for some office to vibe-space conversions. 

Also just poking around at the TopGolf/brewery district... looks decent for the Ravens crowd, but post-O's game you're looking at crossing an urban freeway sandwiched between a sea of parking lots. Not ideal.

Working on a walking bridge and other things but that is in the future.

[CallMeBrooksie]

6 minutes ago, mojmann said:

It will be interesting to see what happens around the stadium as part of the 30-year deal. Truthfully, everything has shifted east.  Most of the investment now is in Harbor East and Harbor Point. My wife recently hosted a convention in Harbor East and the people attending were blow away -- "this isn't what we expected in Baltimore. It's beautiful!" The challenge for the city is to attract that same kind of investment to the Arena/Lexington Market/Stadium areas. That's a big challenge. A winning team and more crowds should help that effort.  

 

When urban investment has lagged for this long, it can take quite a while for certain areas to "catch up". There's things that the state of MD could do right now to kickstart outside investment, but they don't and that's a convo for another forum.

[SteveA]

9 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Light rail is a joke from the North to Camden Yards. Always slow and schedule is a mystery  One car before and after the game, so people could not get to the game or leave right away. They know there is a baseball game at a certain time, it dosen't cost anything to put another car on. Worst run system I have been on .

I find this really odd because it is a great way to get to/from the games to the south.   I go park at North Linthicum and ride the light rail all the time.   A quick ride, there's always multiple trains after the game.   Been using it for 30 years with very few issues.

Note that I'm not saying I don't believe you.   I know there have been a ton of instances like Tony Soprano describes where there are line interruptions and you have to board a bus.   

But from the south in, it's been good for a long time.