Should we call up Westburg or Ortiz and shuttle Henderson back down?

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

I know everyone has been down on Gunnar all season, but the simple fact remains that he has not been pitched to. 

Like, at all.  I mean, he's walked 24 times in 32 games.  His OBP is still nearly 175 points higher than his batting average!

Of course this has limited his slugging, but do you actually encourage a young, disciplined hitter to chase all the time in order to make more contact with the ball? 

I certainly wouldn't.  I'd try moving him to other parts of the line up where they can't keep pitching around him before I tried anything else at this point.

Not everyone has been down on him. Plenty of people are being level headed about where he is.

[deward]

17 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Gunnar is struggling over his last 10 games slashing .111/.294/.296/.590 but the Orioles are 6-4 while playing two of the best teams in baseball. My thought is as long as the team is winning, you allow him to take his lumps and hopefully he makes some adjustments. The good news is he has a .111 BABIP over this span so he's gotten very unlucky so you have to expect some improvement based on his "luck" inevitable improving. 

Now, I don't think Henderson gets an unlimited leash but I don't think that time has come, especially with Urias out for a bit. The good news is that Henderson's defense has improved of late at 3B and I feel he's providing some defensive value now even though his overall defensive metrics are poor. 

Westburg and Ortiz are certainly making cases to be on the major league roster so I do think at some point, if Henderson is not showing signs of improvement or goes into a bigger funk, that we could see a move that sees Henderson get reset a bit in AAA. That's probably closer to the end of the month for me.

What I notice is that Gunnar has cut his K/PA down to 23.5% over those 10 games (from 32% in the games prior). SSS, but I think adjustments are being made that should start to pay off. If they're going to call up Ortiz, I'd rather see him here to spell Mateo during his automatic-out streaks.

[interloper]

The simple fact that he's seeing as many pitches as he is makes me comfortable with him in the lineup. It's something this offense has excelled at so far and it's insanely satisfying to witness an Orioles offense actually be good at this. I watch these dudes spit on tough pitches from great pitchers and it feels amazing to be on the opposite end of that for once. 

 

[Tony-OH]

21 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Hey, they did it with Jeff Fiorentino, so why not?

(Obviously this is not happening, but it’s looking more and more like Holliday will be in AA by early July at latest.)

How would I know that you would be the one to remember that?  

Not to derail this thread, but to this day that is the weirdest promotion that I've ever seen from any Orioles executive. Luis Matos had gotten hurt on May 10th that year and the Orioles were playing Larry Bigbie in CF when he really was a corner outfielder. With Melvin Mora ingrained as the everyday 3B, there really was no one else who could play CF effectively on the major league roster.

This is where the Orioles lack of AAA depth hurt them because no one wanted to sign with the Orioles and play in Ottawa. The AAA CF was Tim Raines Jr., a failed prospect at this point, but one who was a pretty good defensive outfielder in CF. For some reason, he was not the choice. Then they could have gone with 27-year old former major leaguer Peter Bergeron, who had been released by the Cubs in spring training, but they signed him on May 13th and sent him to play CF in Bowie - AA, probably because he didn't want to go to Ottawa. While probably no good either, he had major league experience in CF and could have been jettisoned off the 40-man when Matos came off the DL. 

So in early May they reached all the way down to High-A and plucked Fiorentino who was not really a centerfielder because had neither the footspeed of instincts to play effectively out there. Fiorentino was only in his 2nd full minor league season and had less than 900 minor league PAs under his belt. He didn't need to be put on the 40-man for another year and was nowhere near ready to be in the big leagues. 

Now Fiorentino did go 6-for his first 10 at bats at which point @Frobby fell in love with him and was ready to battle to the death with anyone who questioned the almighty Fiorentino (  ).

I'm not saying his weird promotion hurt his development, because in the end, he just couldn't get to his raw power enough in games and wasn't a very good defensive outfielder overall, but Beattie-Flanagan added him unnecessarily premature to the 40-man and held onto him unto 2008 when they finally DFA'd him. 

After bouncing around between Oakland and St Louis orgs, Flanny got his man back again 2009 wher he slashed .281/.351/.297/.648 before signing with a Japanese team where he hoped his lack of power would play up. It did not. But in 2011, a 28-years old, much to the joy of Frobby, the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract and he played at Bowie once again. He as out of baseball by 31 after a few years in INDY ball.

I believe Frobby is still penpals with him.   

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

I know everyone has been down on Gunnar all season, but the simple fact remains that he has not been pitched to. 

Like, at all.  I mean, he's walked 24 times in 32 games.  His OBP is still nearly 175 points higher than his batting average!

I am not down on Gunnar, and have supported him all season.  But the above smells to me like making excuses.  

Adley Rutschman has walked 30 times, and yet he’s managed to hit .274 when he’s not walking.  Cedric Mullins has walked 21 times, and hit .248 when he’s not walking.  The reason Gunnar has such a low BA is (1) he’s taking too many strikes, and (2) he’s missing a lot when he swings.   

These problems are not going to go away by changing his spot in the batting order.  He just needs to keep seeing major league pitching and eventually make the adjustments he needs to make. He’ll figure it out, we just need to be patient.  

 

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

How would I know that you would be the one to remember that?  

Not to derail this thread, but to this day that is the weirdest promotion that I've ever seen from any Orioles executive. Luis Matos had gotten hurt on May 10th that year and the Orioles were playing Larry Bigbie in CF when he really was a corner outfielder. With Melvin Mora ingrained as the everyday 3B, there really was no one else who could play CF effectively on the major league roster.

This is where the Orioles lack of AAA depth hurt them because no one wanted to sign with the Orioles and play in Ottawa. The AAA CF was Tim Raines Jr., a failed prospect at this point, but one who was a pretty good defensive outfielder in CF. For some reason, he was not the choice. Then they could have gone with 27-year old former major leaguer Peter Bergeron, who had been released by the Cubs in spring training, but they signed him on May 13th and sent him to play CF in Bowie - AA, probably because he didn't want to go to Ottawa. While probably no good either, he had major league experience in CF and could have been jettisoned off the 40-man when Matos came off the DL. 

So in early May they reached all the way down to High-A and plucked Fiorentino who was not really a centerfielder because had neither the footspeed of instincts to play effectively out there. Fiorentino was only in his 2nd full minor league season and had less than 900 minor league PAs under his belt. He didn't need to be put on the 40-man for another year and was nowhere near ready to be in the big leagues. 

Now Fiorentino did go 6-for his first 10 at bats at which point @Frobby fell in love with him and was ready to battle to the death with anyone who questioned the almighty Fiorentino (  ).

I'm not saying his weird promotion hurt his development, because in the end, he just couldn't get to his raw power enough in games and wasn't a very good defensive outfielder overall, but Beattie-Flanagan added him unnecessarily premature to the 40-man and held onto him unto 2008 when they finally DFA'd him. 

After bouncing around between Oakland and St Louis orgs, Flanny got his man back again 2009 wher he slashed .281/.351/.297/.648 before signing with a Japanese team where he hoped his lack of power would play up. It did not. But in 2011, a 28-years old, much to the joy of Frobby, the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract and he played at Bowie once again. He as out of baseball by 31 after a few years in INDY ball.

I believe Frobby is still penpals with him.   

How did I know my Fio reference would draw a response from you?  

The only thing I’ll add to your narrative is that, at the time Fio was called up, his teammate Nick Markakis was on the shelf for a few days with a minor injury. Otherwise, it might have been Nick rather than Fio who was called up.  That wouldn’t have been any more logical, but it might have happened.  

[SilentJames]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I am not down on Gunnar, and have supported him all season.  But the above smells to me like making excuses.  

Adley Rutschman has walked 30 times, and yet he’s managed to hit .274 when he’s not walking.  Cedric Mullins has walked 21 times, and hit .248 when he’s not walking.  The reason Gunnar has such a low BA is (1) he’s taking too many strikes, and (2) he’s missing a lot when he swings.   

These problems are not going to go away by changing his spot in the batting order.  He just needs to keep seeing major league pitching and eventually make the adjustments he needs to make. He’ll figure it out, we just need to be patient.  

 

This. 

Gunnar did all he can do against minor league pitching. He will only get better up here. Those walk numbers are telling me he has a good eye, but he needs to be more aggressive. 

[interloper]

20 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

How would I know that you would be the one to remember that?  

Not to derail this thread, but to this day that is the weirdest promotion that I've ever seen from any Orioles executive. Luis Matos had gotten hurt on May 10th that year and the Orioles were playing Larry Bigbie in CF when he really was a corner outfielder. With Melvin Mora ingrained as the everyday 3B, there really was no one else who could play CF effectively on the major league roster.

This is where the Orioles lack of AAA depth hurt them because no one wanted to sign with the Orioles and play in Ottawa. The AAA CF was Tim Raines Jr., a failed prospect at this point, but one who was a pretty good defensive outfielder in CF. For some reason, he was not the choice. Then they could have gone with 27-year old former major leaguer Peter Bergeron, who had been released by the Cubs in spring training, but they signed him on May 13th and sent him to play CF in Bowie - AA, probably because he didn't want to go to Ottawa. While probably no good either, he had major league experience in CF and could have been jettisoned off the 40-man when Matos came off the DL. 

So in early May they reached all the way down to High-A and plucked Fiorentino who was not really a centerfielder because had neither the footspeed of instincts to play effectively out there. Fiorentino was only in his 2nd full minor league season and had less than 900 minor league PAs under his belt. He didn't need to be put on the 40-man for another year and was nowhere near ready to be in the big leagues. 

Now Fiorentino did go 6-for his first 10 at bats at which point @Frobby fell in love with him and was ready to battle to the death with anyone who questioned the almighty Fiorentino (  ).

I'm not saying his weird promotion hurt his development, because in the end, he just couldn't get to his raw power enough in games and wasn't a very good defensive outfielder overall, but Beattie-Flanagan added him unnecessarily premature to the 40-man and held onto him unto 2008 when they finally DFA'd him. 

After bouncing around between Oakland and St Louis orgs, Flanny got his man back again 2009 wher he slashed .281/.351/.297/.648 before signing with a Japanese team where he hoped his lack of power would play up. It did not. But in 2011, a 28-years old, much to the joy of Frobby, the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract and he played at Bowie once again. He as out of baseball by 31 after a few years in INDY ball.

I believe Frobby is still penpals with him.   

I feel like someone needs to write a book about the Beattie-Flanny years. Add in the Jim Duquette years for good measure. Just stunning incompetence during that time from a baseball operations perspective. Full on winging it. Of course no disrespect to Flanny, who was a great person and whose loss really got me. But none of these GMs really had a handle on the FO like even Dan Duquette did. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by interloper

[Sanity Check]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I am not down on Gunnar, and have supported him all season.  But the above smells to me like making excuses.  

Adley Rutschman has walked 30 times, and yet he’s managed to hit .274 when he’s not walking.  Cedric Mullins has walked 21 times, and hit .248 when he’s not walking.  The reason Gunnar has such a low BA is (1) he’s taking too many strikes, and (2) he’s missing a lot when he swings.   

These problems are not going to go away by changing his spot in the batting order.  He just needs to keep seeing major league pitching and eventually make the adjustments he needs to make. He’ll figure it out, we just need to be patient.  

 

Good luck with that around here.....but I completely agree with everything you said.....lots of swing and miss of hittable pitches when he does swing.  I think he's taking a bit too long trying to read pitches before he swings.  Once he starts to make consistent contact, he'll gain his confidence back and will be off and running.

Way too much panic here.

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Good luck with that around here.....but I completely agree with everything you said.....lots of swing and miss of hittable pitches when he does swing.  I think he's taking a bit too long trying to read pitches before he swings.  Once he starts to make consistent contact, he'll gain his confidence back and will be off and running.

Way too much panic here.

This is taking a bit longer, but it reminds me of how Gunnar started at Aberdeen.  In his first 11 games there, he was 1 for 31 but walked 12 times for an .032/.296/.032 slash line.  Then he figured things out and hit .259/.351/.491 the rest of his time there.   I continue to expect the light bulb will come on eventually if he just sticks with it.  Meanwhile, his .344 OBP and improving defense are enough to keep him out there.  

On the defense point, Fangraphs had him at +1.5 UZR over the 18 games ending Tuesday night.  He’s been very solid of late after that week where he made several erratic throws.  
 

[Tony-OH]

21 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Good luck with that around here.....but

Way too much panic here.

Maybe you should reread this thread and then post the number of "panic" posters vs the ones with a defensible opinion. I really hate when I see general takes on the board that try to paint it as reactionary or panicking. It's just not an accurate take.

[Just Regular]

31 minutes ago, interloper said:

I feel like someone needs to write a book about the Beattie-Flanny years. Add in the Jim Duquette years for good measure. Just stunning incompetence during that time from a baseball operations perspective. Full on winging it. Of course no disrespect to Flanny, who was a great person and whose loss really got me. But none of these GMs really had a handle on the FO like even Dan Duquette did. 

I feel like that subject matter might be a little too obscure/depressing by itself, but geez do I hope Dan Duquette and Buck Showalter write proper memoirs someday.

[StottyByNature]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

How would I know that you would be the one to remember that?  

Not to derail this thread, but to this day that is the weirdest promotion that I've ever seen from any Orioles executive. Luis Matos had gotten hurt on May 10th that year and the Orioles were playing Larry Bigbie in CF when he really was a corner outfielder. With Melvin Mora ingrained as the everyday 3B, there really was no one else who could play CF effectively on the major league roster.

This is where the Orioles lack of AAA depth hurt them because no one wanted to sign with the Orioles and play in Ottawa. The AAA CF was Tim Raines Jr., a failed prospect at this point, but one who was a pretty good defensive outfielder in CF. For some reason, he was not the choice. Then they could have gone with 27-year old former major leaguer Peter Bergeron, who had been released by the Cubs in spring training, but they signed him on May 13th and sent him to play CF in Bowie - AA, probably because he didn't want to go to Ottawa. While probably no good either, he had major league experience in CF and could have been jettisoned off the 40-man when Matos came off the DL. 

So in early May they reached all the way down to High-A and plucked Fiorentino who was not really a centerfielder because had neither the footspeed of instincts to play effectively out there. Fiorentino was only in his 2nd full minor league season and had less than 900 minor league PAs under his belt. He didn't need to be put on the 40-man for another year and was nowhere near ready to be in the big leagues. 

Now Fiorentino did go 6-for his first 10 at bats at which point @Frobby fell in love with him and was ready to battle to the death with anyone who questioned the almighty Fiorentino (  ).

I'm not saying his weird promotion hurt his development, because in the end, he just couldn't get to his raw power enough in games and wasn't a very good defensive outfielder overall, but Beattie-Flanagan added him unnecessarily premature to the 40-man and held onto him unto 2008 when they finally DFA'd him. 

After bouncing around between Oakland and St Louis orgs, Flanny got his man back again 2009 wher he slashed .281/.351/.297/.648 before signing with a Japanese team where he hoped his lack of power would play up. It did not. But in 2011, a 28-years old, much to the joy of Frobby, the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract and he played at Bowie once again. He as out of baseball by 31 after a few years in INDY ball.

I believe Frobby is still penpals with him.   

I went to one of those games during his 6 for 10 "streak".  Hell, I remember them playing "New Sensation" when his name was announced.  I also remember his batting stance.  Weird what the brain holds on to, though I think it stems from a "if this guy can do it then I can too!" mentality somewhere.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

I feel like that subject matter might be a little too obscure/depressing by itself, but geez do I hope Dan Duquette and Buck Showalter write proper memoirs someday.

I would be shocked to find out that Angelos didn't insist on some form of NDA.

[SteveA]

2 hours ago, baltfan said:

Absolutely not.  Henderson seems to be making some strides in the last couple of games.  He is hitting the ball harder, not swinging and missing as often, and seems to have made a point of not taking first strikes (I believe he has swung at the first strike 6 straight at-bats).  Apparently this is a strategy that Gallo is employing to some success.  Joey Gallo Is Bashing Again | FanGraphs Baseball

The Rays are one of the smartest organizations out there and chose to intentionally walk Henderson to get to Mateo in the eighth with a runner on 3rd.  They didn't do the same to Hays with Gunnar behind him.  Part of this, of course, was to get to Mateo.  But part of it was also likely what they saw in Henderson.

It was also to get the righty on righty matchup with Mateo.