Ohtani Rental?

[geschinger]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Winning a title, say for yourself as a two time cancer survivor or for your ill Father-in-Law is not the same thing as trying to build a sustainable model for winning in the hope that trips to the playoffs lead to an eventual title.

Houston is franchise that cares about turning a profit, that is one of their goals.

Cohen doesn't worry about turning a profit.  I don't think Seidler cares about turning a profit.  I don't think either are super worried about what the team looks like in five years.  (although the Mets really aren't in that bad of shape)

Seidler nor Cohen have not and are not making the type of moves that give their respective franchises the absolute best chance of winning a World Series title.  Winning the offseason or getting the most attention, sure they are accomplishing that. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, geschinger said:

Seidler nor Cohen have not and are not making the type of moves that give their respective franchises the absolute best chance of winning a World Series title.  Winning the offseason or getting the most attention, sure they are accomplishing that. 

That's pretty easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.

So you win Epimetheus.

[geschinger]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

That's pretty easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.

So you win Epimetheus.

No hindsight was necessary.  Owners/Previous owners like Arte Moreno and Tom Hicks among others have already shown it not to be an ineffective approach to building a WS winner.

Edited July 16, 2023 by geschinger

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, geschinger said:

No hindsight was necessary.  Owners/Previous owners like Arte Moreno and Tom Hicks among others have already shown it not to be an ineffective approach to building a WS winner.

Diamondbacks and Marlins won with it.  So did the Yankees.

[Sydnor]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not strongly advocating for an Ohtani trade.

But I don't think it would be a sign of desperation if they did, I think it would be the type of bold move that has a decent shot at paying off.  Similar to the Andrew Miller move which I still don't regret in the least.  You don't know what next year will bring.  If you are in position to win a title in a given year you have to at least take a close look at anything that will increase your chances.

 

I’m not advocating for it either, but I do think it makes more sense than I originally did, and some do. With Wells, Kremer, and Bradish (and likely Rodriguez) approaching career highs in innings, the Ohtani acquisition, which necessitates a 6 pitcher rotation, helps to keep the innings down a bit. Additionally, he’d easily be the number 1 starter for a playoff series. I also think that he fits in the lineup hitting 1st, 2nd, or 4th. I also believe he would further bump attendance down the stretch and merchandise sales down the stretch.

While Ohtani guarantees nothing, I agree that it would be a bold move that would have a decent chance at paying off.

[Roll Tide]

This is comical … 14 pages of stuff on a player that there is less than 0 chance of happening. 

 

We couldn’t even add a middling starter in the spring due to ownership being cheap!
 

John Frickin Angelos is the owner. They aren’t going to take on a salary. They aren’t going to pay $400 million to extend him and that is the only way you trade for him and sacrifice 4-5 players that include multiple blue chip guys.
 

Knowing this Elias is not going to mortgage the window and resources on a 2 month rental and spare parts aren’t getting it done. 
 

Gents … let’s pull our heads out of the clouds and back to reality. We are the small market No spending Orioles 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

This is comical … 14 pages of stuff on a player that there is less than 0 chance of happening. 

 

We couldn’t even add a middling starter in the spring due to ownership being cheap!
 

John Frickin Angelos is the owner. They aren’t going to take on a salary. They aren’t going to pay $400 million to extend him and that is the only way you trade for him and sacrifice 4-5 players that include multiple blue chip guys.
 

Knowing this Elias is not going to mortgage the window and resources on a 2 month rental and spare parts aren’t getting it done. 
 

Gents … let’s pull our heads out of the clouds and back to reality. We are the small market No spending Orioles 

I think it's fine.

I don't think anyone here actually thinks it's going to happen.

It's just chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat, conversation, contradiction, criticism.

It's only talk, cheap talk

[geschinger]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Diamondbacks and Marlins won with it.  So did the Yankees.

Yankees in 2009 are the one counterpoint Iof it working IMO.  

Marlins added a lot of FA in 97 and they definitely increased payroll quite a bit I don't recall it being among the top. 

Not sure at all how the Diamondbacks would fit the narrative.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, geschinger said:

Yankees in 2009 are the one counterpoint Iof it working IMO.  

Marlins added a lot of FA in 97 and they definitely increased payroll quite a bit I don't recall it being among the top. 

Not sure at all how the Diamondbacks would fit the narrative.  

Why does it have to be among the top?

Also, the D-Backs won 100 games and got to the NLDS in year two of their existence and won the WS in year four.  That involved some spending.  They certainly didn't spend five years tanking for draft picks.

[foxfield]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why does it have to be among the top?

Also, the D-Backs won 100 games and got to the NLDS in year two of their existence and won the WS in year four.  That involved some spending.  They certainly didn't spend five years tanking for draft picks.

Nor did the Orioles....

[geschinger]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why does it have to be among the top?

Also, the D-Backs won 100 games and got to the NLDS in year two of their existence and won the WS in year four.  That involved some spending.  They certainly didn't spend five years tanking for draft picks.

Not caring about profit and going all-in kind of equates to spending a lot on payroll, no? 

Already drawing close to 3m fans a year and where their payroll was as at during those years doesn't make AZ an example of an owner going all in, putting winning over profits.  I suspect they were making a healthy profit at the time.  

 

[AnythingO's]

John Frickin Angelos is the owner. They aren’t going to take on a salary. They aren’t going to pay $400 million to extend him and that is the only way you trade for him and sacrifice 4-5 players that include multiple blue chip guys.

This is why I keep coming back to ERod. He has an opt out but doesn't exercise it until after the WS. DET can hold onto him and get NO COMPENSATION, try to renegotiate now but unless they seriously overpay why would ERod choose to stay. Third option is trade him now to get something. We could offer Stowers and Norby and Irvin, all positions of need for DET, without hurting the team or the future. We them have another solid arm at the front of the rotation. He gets the chance to play half his games in a park favorable to him in front of great defense. I think there is a fair chance we could renegotiate his 3/$49M to 3/$55M and add a $20M option. Does he get more that $3/55M or $4/75M for his 31-33/34 years? AAV of $18M is what Frazier + Gibson make so it is Payroll neutral. It's a risk but so is every trade. Putting ERod in front of Bradish, Kremer, Gibson allows Wells, GRod, maybe Means to bolster the BP while managing their innings. Just seems like a good risk to take.

 

[geschinger]

5 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

John Frickin Angelos is the owner. They aren’t going to take on a salary. They aren’t going to pay $400 million to extend him and that is the only way you trade for him and sacrifice 4-5 players that include multiple blue chip guys.

I don't think the O's are going to consider Ohtani, but just pointing out as far as salary is concerned, the difference in salary between an ERod and Ohtani rental is only ~$4m.  So if taking on salary is an issue for Angelos, ERod is probably not an option either.

Unless he gets hurt there will be no potential renegotiation of ER's extension.   He and his agent know how the market was last year and will likely be again this offseason.   He would likely end up with another contract that guarantees another 4-5 years on the FA market at a higher salary.  One has to approach trading for him as if he's a rental, nothing more.

[Roll Tide]

22 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

John Frickin Angelos is the owner. They aren’t going to take on a salary. They aren’t going to pay $400 million to extend him and that is the only way you trade for him and sacrifice 4-5 players that include multiple blue chip guys.

This is why I keep coming back to ERod. He has an opt out but doesn't exercise it until after the WS. DET can hold onto him and get NO COMPENSATION, try to renegotiate now but unless they seriously overpay why would ERod choose to stay. Third option is trade him now to get something. We could offer Stowers and Norby and Irvin, all positions of need for DET, without hurting the team or the future. We them have another solid arm at the front of the rotation. He gets the chance to play half his games in a park favorable to him in front of great defense. I think there is a fair chance we could renegotiate his 3/$49M to 3/$55M and add a $20M option. Does he get more that $3/55M or $4/75M for his 31-33/34 years? AAV of $18M is what Frazier + Gibson make so it is Payroll neutral. It's a risk but so is every trade. Putting ERod in front of Bradish, Kremer, Gibson allows Wells, GRod, maybe Means to bolster the BP while managing their innings. Just seems like a good risk to take.

 

Wells ….isn’t he our best starter statistically? You’d advocate moving him to the pen?

if they add a starter you probably go six deep __________, Wells, Bradish, Kremer, Gibson, and Gray Rod. If Grayson struggles near the end of the season they can probably send him back down or shut him down.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Roll Tide

[Can_of_corn]

3 hours ago, emmett16 said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10082893-shohei-ohtani-trade-rumors-rays-expected-to-call-angels-ahead-of-2023-mlb-deadline