Bullpen Hierarchy

[Moose Milligan]

IMO, it goes:

Cano

Bautista

 

Coulombe

Baker

Baumann

Akin

 

Givens (15 IL)

 

Voth

 

 

Perez

 

I don't see how they keep Perez around for much longer, which is a shame considering how great he was last year.  But as the 2023 season goes on, it's becoming more and more apparent that last year was an outlier for him and he's a casualty of reliever volatility.  The same goes for Voth.  There's a fairly significant delta from the top of the group to the middle to the bottom.  

Then there are guys like Vespi who do well in the minors but haven't translated that success into ML performance.  Gillaspie is inessential, IMO.  

IMO, this unit needs some tightening up as the season goes on and I have to think that it'll come from trades.  Reed Garrett is doing well in Norfolk and I think we'll see him at some point, but he hasn't much of a track record in the majors to go off of.  There's the neverending DL Hall Quandary, too.  

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Moose Milligan

[bpilktree67]

Perez seems to be a causality of the shift change.  Last night he got a bunch of ground balls between first and second but they kept getting hits in those.  That same thing happened in the Guardians came on Memorial day.   He is not missing a lot of bats and they are putting it in play mostly on the ground but with the shift they are finding holes.   

[Sports Guy]

This team lacks another reliable arm in the pen.

I like  Baker and felt he would break out this year but he needs more consistency.

Im not ready to completely buy into Coulombe for the whole season and I don’t want him to be our #3.

Would like to get one more back end guy and drop everyone else down a peg. 

[George Zuverink]

29 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

IMO, it goes:

Cano

Bautista

 

Coulombe

Baker

Baumann

Akin

 

Givens (15 IL)

 

Voth

 

 

Perez

 

I don't see how they keep Perez around for much longer, which is a shame considering how great he was last year.  But as the 2023 season goes on, it's becoming more and more apparent that last year was an outlier for him and he's a casualty of reliever volatility.  The same goes for Voth.  There's a fairly significant delta from the top of the group to the middle to the bottom.  

Then there are guys like Vespi who do well in the minors but haven't translated that success into ML performance.  Gillaspie is inessential, IMO.  

IMO, this unit needs some tightening up as the season goes on and I have to think that it'll come from trades.  Reed Garrett is doing well in Norfolk and I think we'll see him at some point, but he hasn't much of a track record in the majors to go off of.  There's the neverending DL Hall Quandary, too.  

 

 

I assume those are tiers, not absolute rank order? I think Baumann is threatening to sneak into that upper tier.

 

[RVAOsFan]

Good thread, I agree with @Sports Guy another back end guy via trade to drop everyone down would be ideal.  I also question how much we should be relying on Givens.  He looks a lot older and less athletic than I remember him and I just wonder what that body has left in the tank.

[7Mo]

I have a lot more belief that we'll add 1-2 bullpen guys over the next 6 weeks than I do that we add a TOR or middle of the order bat. 

[lazyjc22]

Missing Givens and Tate from that tier under Cano and the Mountain has hurt.  Thank goodness Cano came out of nowhere to be as dominant as he's been.

I wonder if by August, if the team is still in the thick of things, if any consideration is given to adding G-Rod and/or Hall to the pen.   I'm sure the trade deadline will have some say in things, too. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

I have a lot more belief that we'll add 1-2 bullpen guys over the next 6 weeks than I do that we add a TOR or middle of the order bat. 

100%

To be fair, that is the case for any team.

BP value increases in the playoffs.

Of course, we also have the possibility that Wells goes to the pen because of innnings.

OTOh, even if he does that, I would still like to add another arm.

[Aristotelian]

Bautista is back ahead of Cano IMO. Cano is still very good but Bautista is locked in. Call them 1A/1B.

I have Coulombe and Baumann essentially tied. Just depends on matchups and who is rested. Generally Coulombe will have priority over Baumann because Bautista and Cano are both RHP. 

Then Baker a notch below those guys. Needs just a bit more consistency.

Then Akin, Perez, and Voth. Probably in that order but I don't really trust any of them.  

It's really hard to tell what is wrong with Perez. I feel like he could turn things around. Not ready to give up on him after the year he had last year. Velo seems OK. He doesn't pitch much and when he does it's a couple batters. Sometimes he looks really good.

Forced to choose, I would get rid of Voth before Perez. Between Hall, Zimmerman, Rom, and Denoyer (if he isn't claimed) we have bulk options who could be not-worse than Voth. 

[Baltimorecuse]

6 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Bautista is back ahead of Cano IMO. Cano is still very good but Bautista is locked in. Call them 1A/1B.

I have Coulombe and Baumann essentially tied. Just depends on matchups and who is rested. Generally Coulombe will have priority over Baumann because Bautista and Cano are both RHP. 

Then Baker a notch below those guys. Needs just a bit more consistency.

Then Akin, Perez, and Voth. Probably in that order but I don't really trust any of them.  

It's really hard to tell what is wrong with Perez. I feel like he could turn things around. Not ready to give up on him after the year he had last year. Velo seems OK. He doesn't pitch much and when he does it's a couple batters. Sometimes he looks really good.

Forced to choose, I would get rid of Voth before Perez. Between Hall, Zimmerman, Rom, and Denoyer (if he isn't claimed) we have bulk options who could be not-worse than Voth. 

His control sucks.  That is what is wrong.  That can be turned around.  How long?

[Moose Milligan]

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This team lacks another reliable arm in the pen.

I like  Baker and felt he would break out this year but he needs more consistency.

Im not ready to completely buy into Coulombe for the whole season and I don’t want him to be our #3.

Would like to get one more back end guy and drop everyone else down a peg. 

I like Coulombe because he doesn't throw anything straight.  Everything moves, everything has good break and shape to it.  He's not a classic power arm, but I think he's been really effective.  I understand your hesitations with him, definitely and I don't want him to be a #3 guy either but I do believe he's a really good piece.  He'd probably be a LOOGY before that role became extinct.  

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I like Coulombe because he doesn't throw anything straight.  Everything moves, everything has good break and shape to it.  He's not a classic power arm, but I think he's been really effective.  I understand your hesitations with him, definitely and I don't want him to be a #3 guy either but I do believe he's a really good piece.  He'd probably be a LOOGY before that role became extinct.  

In the playoffs, you need 5 or 6 reliable arms imo. He can be one of those. I’m just hoping that he is the 4th or 5th guy as opposed to the 3rd guy that he has been thus far.

Plus, some insurance for Cano and/or Bautista would be huge too.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

In the playoffs, you need 5 or 6 reliable arms imo. He can be one of those. I’m just hoping that he is the 4th or 5th guy as opposed to the 3rd guy that he has been thus far.

We're in agreement.

 

[interloper]

Watching Perez is so weird right now. He's got all of his velocity but can't get a swing-and-miss to save his life. It's disappointing that Holt et al haven't been able to pinpoint something to fix him, especially after we... already fixed him? I'm not sure what to make of it. But you can't hide him forever, especially when he struggles in mop up roles at times. 

[Frobby]

I’m not going to say Perez was great last night, but he was incredibly unlucky.  After getting the final two outs of the 7th to clean up Voth’s mess, let’s look at the 8th.

Walk.   OK, that’s bad.

Possible DP grounder to Mateo, but his footing gives way and he has to throw while on his stomach and barely gets the force at 2B.  Bad break on the footing potentially costs an out and leaves a runner on 1B.

Seeing eye ground single just out of Frazier’s reach. XBA .200 on the play.

69.1 mph grounder with an xBA of .130, which Frazier gloves but O’Hearn had foolishly gone for the ball and wasn’t in position, and Perez had failed to cover 1B.   OK, it’s on Perez that he didn’t cover the bag, but nothing wrong with his pitching.

Potential DP grounder to Mateo, who has a slight delay getting the ball out of his glove and then Frazier bobbles the transfer and can’t complete the DP.

Walk.   OK, bad on Perez.

Then Perez is removed and a subsequent run is scored on a swinging bunt single by Kirk.

That inning was frustrating, and I’m not saying Perez had no role in it, but he was very unlucky on four consecutive ground balls he induced.   

He had a very similar outing against Cleveland recently where Straw got on base on a high chopper to the mound and a couple of other grounded/doinks led to runs.  

Now, I’m not totally exonerating the guy.  He isn’t striking guys out (6.0 K/9), and sometimes when guys hit the ball, bad luck happens.   That’s why strikeouts are important.  But I’m just saying, he’s had bad luck in a couple of recent outings, including last night.