Ortiz vs Westburg

[Mr-splash]

It's really something to see. The level of play in the MLB is absurd. The difference between AAA and MLB is massive. Let alone the difference in low level minors to MLB. Like a different stratosphere of ball. 

[btdart20]

I have to think this is one of the big questions in the warehouse these days.  And I don't envy the decision-making.  I do know that Elias will make his decision regardless of what the fan base thinks.  If trading Lopez showed us nothing else, it was that.

Personally, I like Ortiz better all around.  He might have slightly less power, but I think his lower K% and better defense gives him the edge. 

The 40-man is a factor for 2023 but isn't a ceiling signal.  

2 hours ago, Just Regular said:

Good review of similar performance results.     Just to be the other side's advocate, Elias lauded Westburg's tools on draft day and put 5X more bonus pool dollars on this college shortstop.    As sound as Elias' judgments have generally been these first 4-5 years, for me that's a meaningful separator in how the Club envisions these player's talents working at the MLB level.

Both prospects have progressed very well, and I hope the science of decision making gets informed how they both perform as middle infield starters sometimes over the next few months.

Money as tight as it is, Elias on some level for me is really only conducting the meta negotiation with franchise cornerstones now.     Adley will never say a bad word about anyone, but I'm sure he too has feelings around the true quality of say Hicks/O'Hearn/Mateo/Frazier v. Cowser/Kjerstad/Ortiz/Westburg, and is also gathering in data as Year 2 of the opening 6 of his career continues.

Six weeks to the Trade Deadline, showcasing everyone as well as possible probably sticks as a main priority.

The bonus baby and loud stats can add perceived market-value on top of the showcasing.

I do agree with the underlined the biggest priority at this point.  Internal evals, picking our keepers, arbitraging the market.  A while back you speculated something along the lines of "could they see Prieto as the low market Arraez type and cash in the more hyped/ranked prospects?"  With how Prieto has been playing (and that they signed the OG Prieto in Frazier), maybe there's a metric they value that the rest of the market (or at least the OH universe) doesn't.

[HelenaEngineer]

39 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

This is why Frazier was brought in. To raise the floor. The move is looking good right now. In playoff contention and Ortiz is playing like hot garbage.

It is kind of ridiculous to assess Ortiz as "playing like hot garbage" when he has 33 PAs spread over two stints and a couple of months. I am glad they signed Frazier, but he also does have essentially the same OPS and batting average as Ryan Mountcastle, who everyone would like to ship to Siberia.

I don't argue that he raised the floor, and it is likely higher than the floor of Westburg or Ortiz, but I have a suspicion that the higher floor comes with a lower ceiling, and that ceiling gap might be important in September and beyond. Frazier should be on the team anyway, since his experience and versatility would be an asset even if his starts at 2B are reduced later this year. He is hitting .229 and has an OPS+ of 89, well below league average. Frazier has hit .173 over 53 ABs since the start of June, a bigger sample size than Ortiz for the season, which you characterize as "hot garbage".,

[orioles22]

I think the Orioles have probably done Westburg a favor by not bouncing him back and forth as they have with Ortiz. I think it has hurt Ortiz's numbers at both levels.

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, orioles22 said:

I think the Orioles have probably done Westburg a favor by not bouncing him back and forth as they have with Ortiz. I think it has hurt Ortiz's numbers at both levels.

It doesn’t seem to have hurt his AAA numbers at all.  He had an .889 OPS in AAA at the time of his first call up.  He had a .905 OPS from the time he was sent back down to the time of his second call up.  He had a 1.145 OPS from the second time he was sent back down until his third call up.  

[orioles22]

Good point. I guess I meant more the numbers affected by games played. Someone mentioned five home runs. I think he'd have better power numbers with more games played, along with establishing a better rhythm without the time away.

[InsideCoroner]

4 hours ago, G54377 said:

With Gunnar and Holliday pretty much locked in on the left side of the infield, I'd like to see Westburg stick with us at 2B with his offense to beef up our lineup. Ortiz seems like the odd man out. 

I’m not ready to lock Holliday in anywhere just yet. He’s got to prove he can handle the pressure and adjustments, all while staying healthy. There are enough 1/1 draft picks who never made the majors for reasons other than their potential.

[AnythingO's]

I think ME is auditioning Ortiz as a super utility player with an eye to next year. Ortiz is a line drive hitter, any offense he provides is a bonus. As long as his glove plays at 2B, SS, and 3B he will stay up. The problem with getting enough consistent ABs is that Hyde won't do it, Urias and Ortiz are redundant and he will favor Urias and Frazier. However, Urias shouldn't be used at SS unless in an injury emergency, advantage Ortiz. Regular ABs for Ortiz need either Frazier or Urias to be traded. Ortiz has until trading deadline to establish his defensive chops. I still think Urias to MIA for Rogers is fair, they don't need his arm but they need offense.

The one to bring up now is Cowser, after he plays FT another week or 2 to show he is fully recovered. He has 170 ABs and OPS over 1 this year and had 105 ABs last year with OPS .768 if memory serves. Lester isn't going to play up here, he is not a prospect. Use his spot to start Cowser's transition. If he fails, bring up somebody else like Cameron. We can't go into second half without a second, viable COF. ME needs to keep Hyde from playing the likes of Vavra, O'Hearn, Lester in RF and McCann at DH. IMO we should start removing black holes from the lineup (offensively and defensively). Besides Kjerstad needs a COF spot to play in AAA while he continues his assault on minor league pitching. That leaves 1B open for Mayo in AAA as he has largely proved he has mastered AA pitching.

Edited June 19, 2023 by AnythingO's
typo

[Flash- bd]

I like Frazier and actually think he was a shrewd signing, and think his effect on the clubhouse is the real big advantage in him and probably underrated by us fans how important that kind of thing is, but it's getting time where Mateo and Frazier's production compared to the ability of Ortiz and Westburg...well, it's hard to stomach. Ortiz really needs to be given more ABs, if he rotates with Frazier and Mateo he should get almost starter's ABs. 

From there we can make a decision on whether a spot in the infield needs to be opened up via trade for Westburg. 

[waroriole]

I saw a rumor yesterday that someone from Norfolk is being added to the roster today. Combined with Watkins being DFA, I think we might see Westburg or Cowser today. 
 

 

[Sports Guy]

15 hours ago, Flash- bd said:

I like Frazier and actually think he was a shrewd signing, and think his effect on the clubhouse is the real big advantage in him and probably underrated by us fans how important that kind of thing is, but it's getting time where Mateo and Frazier's production compared to the ability of Ortiz and Westburg...well, it's hard to stomach. Ortiz really needs to be given more ABs, if he rotates with Frazier and Mateo he should get almost starter's ABs. 

From there we can make a decision on whether a spot in the infield needs to be opened up via trade for Westburg. 

I’m curious…was Frazier the only vet player they could have added that would have helped the clubhouse? (Which I don’t buy at all)

[Os4days]

Besides the stats, Ortiz doesn’t pass the eye test as a hitter to me. Sure he has shown some pop in the minors but I haven’t seen any bat speed in his limited ABs in the majors. Sure it’s a small sample size and he is just getting experience. 

For a guy who is better as a slap hitter at 5’9 190, he also is not a threat on the bases. I really only see him as a nothing more than a utility player at best. 

[clapdiddy]

Personally, I'd like to see Westburg, Cowser, AND Ortiz up here and all starting.

[The Goob]

9 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

Personally, I'd like to see Westburg, Cowser, AND Ortiz up here and all starting.

If they are taking at bats away from Fazier, Mateo and McKenna I think that would make a ton of sense.  It would put a big burden on rookies to carry 3-4 spots in the lineup every night.

[clapdiddy]

5 minutes ago, The Goob said:

If they are taking at bats away from Fazier, Mateo and McKenna I think that would make a ton of sense.  It would put a big burden on rookies to carry 3-4 spots in the lineup every night.

The good thing would be that they'd all still be available.   I think you can find enough AB's for all of them...except McKenna.

Edited June 20, 2023 by clapdiddy