Can we all agree on one thing?

[Brooks The Great]

1 hour ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

Yes, he wants to lose games and hasn't found a good way to do it yet.

 

Not what I said at all. I like Elias a lot, but he's waited too long to integrate Westburg, Ortiz, and Cowser. Someone can be a great GM and make mistakes. Nice try at the troll job, though. Wouldn't be OH without the snarky one-sentence response taking things completely out of context.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, TheWall said:

The idea that a top 100 prospect is at best a placeholder is laughable. Ortiz might end up a bust, but he could also end up a very good everyday SS - he certainly has the glove for it. 

I'm not sure why Gunnar and Urias are being brought up here given that folks want to see less of Mateo and Frazier. 

What's the hard part to comprehend that makes Jackson Holliday the long term SS for the Orioles? Do you believe that Ortiz is a better prospect than Holliday? Henderson? Westburg? 

It appears that those 3 have been chosen by the O's as the longterm infielders.

I don't want to knock Ortiz as a prospect and I hope that he does well here or somewhere else. But it doesn't appear that he has a place here long term. 

Does it look differently to you?

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, maybenxtyr said:

They're just prospects. Not everyone has to separate them out when having a general discussion. Ortiz should have received some playing time when we are considering using him over Mateo. Jackson Holliday has zero bearing on the team at this moment.

I don't disagree with the underlined portion. But it is what it is.

As far as the bolded portion goes, neither does Ortiz.

[owknows]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

What's the hard part to comprehend that makes Jackson Holliday the long term SS for the Orioles? Do you believe that Ortiz is a better prospect than Holliday? Henderson? Westburg? 

The history of baseball is rich with can't miss players who were awesome until they hit AAA or MLB.

Why don't we wait and see what Holliday actually does before annointing him?

As for Henderson and Westburg... they really don't factor into the question.

They ought to be playing Henderson 3B Ortiz SS and Westburg 2B

With Urias UTIL

And they ought to be trading Mateo and Frazier for a bag of balls.

Quote

 

 

[Baltimorecuse]

1 hour ago, owknows said:

I'm saying that he's a human being. And like all human beings... he has strengths and weaknesses.

He has some pretty good strengths. He drafts exceptionally well. He seems to understand the nature of the game, and how to extract value from applying statistical metrics.

On the flip side... he seems to have a weakness for holding on to dumpster fodder vets for too long.

On the whole, I'd say he's one of the better GM's in the league... Top tier.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have faults. And those faults need to be weighed on the whole to assess overall competency.

Not sure what's driving your hyperbolic approach to this conversation.. but it's making you look a little silly.

You come out and bad mouth Elias and now you're backing off.  That's fine.

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, owknows said:

The history of baseball is rich with can't miss players who were awesome until they hit AAA or MLB.

Why don't we wait and see what Holliday actually does before annointing him?

As for Henderson and Westburg... they really don't factor into the question.

They ought to be playing Henderson 3B Ortiz SS and Westburg 2B

With Urias UTIL

And they ought to be trading Mateo and Frazier for a bag of balls.

 

That’s the issue is Ortiz more enough of a net positive as an offensive and defensive player over Urias at 3B? I readily admit that I don’t know the answer to that question. But I don’t see anything wrong at all with Gunnar Henderson’s defense at SS. He seems more than capable to me. How does he look to you?

[owknows]

42 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

You come out and bad mouth Elias and now you're backing off.  That's fine.

My position on Elias has never changed.

I have repeatedly called him one of the best, and occasionally called him the best GM in the Game.

But l don't consider him without fault.

And given that this is a baseball forum, we occasionally discuss what we think the team could do better.

Either this is a serious problem for you... (people discussing baseball in ways you don't like).. or you're simply a troll.

At the moment... it's looking like troll to me. As you really aren't offering anything but hyperbole.

Edited July 3, 2023 by owknows
spelling

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

That’s the issue is Ortiz more enough of a net positive as an offensive and defensive player over Urias at 3B? I readily admit that I don’t know the answer to that question. But I don’t see anything wrong at all with Gunnar Henderson’s defense at SS. He seems more than capable to me. How does he look to you?

I would keep Urias.

And I would do so because I really don't know how Ortiz will perform in the majors. I think it's safe to say he'd outperform Mateo and Frazier... (but a cardboard cutout of a player would probably do that too).

So if it were mine to do... I'd run out Henderson, Ortiz, and Westburg.. with Urias at UTIL... until Ortiz shows me he can't keep the job

[Bemorewins]

15 minutes ago, owknows said:

I would keep Urias.

And I would do so because I really don't know how Ortiz will perform in the majors. I think it's safe to say he'd outperform Mateo and Frazier... (but a cardboard cutout of a player would probably do that too).

So if it were mine to do... I'd run out Henderson, Ortiz, and Westburg.. with Urias at UTIL... until Ortiz shows me he can't keep the job

Here’s my thing. We need to acquire an impact starter. I know Mateo and Frazier have little to no trade value. I’m not sure how much value that Urias carries. I figure that Ortiz has the most value of all of them. Probably not enough to headline a trade package. But enough to be a useful piece included. He is one our top level trade commodities that I think that we will be fine without because IMO he is a redundant player. If they keep him that is fine, as long as we figure out a way to acquire an impact starter at the deadline. Right now, we don’t have enough starting pitching to make a deep October run IMO.

[24fps]

Westburg and Cowser have earned a look and personally I don't need a whole lot of theorizing to know how I feel.  I want to see Westburg playing because I don't want to see Frazier play baseball more than once a week and I want Cowser playing so I don't have to watch Santander in RF anymore.  After seeing the new guys play for a couple of months, maybe then we have business drawing conclusions about their impact on the team.  Right now, Westburg has played all of six games.

It's not clear what I'm supposed to be agreeing with everybody else about.

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Here’s my thing. We need to acquire an impact starter. I know Mateo and Frazier have little to no trade value. I’m not sure how much value that Urias carries. I figure that Ortiz has the most value of all of them. Probably not enough to headline a trade package. But enough to be a useful piece included. He is one our top level trade commodities that I think that we will be fine without because IMO he is a redundant player. If they keep him that is fine, as long as we figure out a way to acquire an impact starter at the deadline. Right now, we don’t have enough starting pitching to make a deep October run IMO.

We could benefit from improving the MLB roster... But I don't think we'll be adding a TOR starter at the break.  Maybe a good middle reliever and an innings eater SP. I'd be looking at players like Norby, Haskins, Stowers, Vavra, Santander as trade fodder. Maybe even Cowser for the right player.  I'd keep Ortiz until you know how good he actually is.

[owknows]

4 minutes ago, 24fps said:

 

It's not clear what I'm supposed to be agreeing with everybody else about.

The general consensus seems to be that the moon landing was a hoax... and that we have aliens captive at area 51. Just nod....smile... and back away slowly.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, owknows said:

We could benefit from improving the MLB roster... But I don't think we'll be adding a TOR starter at the break.  Maybe a good middle reliever and an innings eater SP. I'd be looking at players like Norby, Haskins, Stowers, Vavra, Santander as trade fodder. Maybe even Cowser for the right player.  I'd keep Ortiz until you know how good he actually is.

IMO Santander is one of our best hitters. I hope that we don’t have to trade him.

You would rather trade Cowser than Ortiz?

[Baltimorecuse]

2 hours ago, FlipTheBird said:

All anyone talks about? More like it’s what a small group of very vocal people won’t ever shut up about on a message board. I rarely if ever hear the run of the mill fan scathingly demand that the Orioles call up their prospects.

I didn't like the bully cult taking off on the original poster.  

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

IMO Santander is one of our best hitters. I hope that we don’t have to trade him.

You would rather trade Cowser than Ortiz?

Yes...Santander is one of our best hitters.

So he has actual trade value. We have several players who have essentially no trade value. McCann, Frazier, Mateo. I'm sure they are the players you'd be comfortable parting with. But they will net you nothing. 

And yes... if you were looking to add a substantive pitcher, I would probably trade Cowser before Ortiz. But I'd prefer to trade neither.

If you want a player of value, you're going to have to trade away actual value.