Why isn't Ortiz in Baltimore instead of Mateo?

[24fps]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

If Ortiz is as good as you describe, it makes me wonder why many rankings have him rated in a similar range to Norby, who most posters don’t like much?

If Ortiz is that guy at SS he must be very underrated and probably a similarly talented player as Gunnar Henderson?

He's certainly been underrated by Hyde and Elias given how he's been handled at the ML level so far .  Ortiz doesn't need to be as talented as Henderson to be considerably better than Mateo overall. 

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I cannot remember but I think it may have been you? My apologies if it was not.

But were you the poster who was advocating for a move of positions of Holliday to 2B or CF?

I ask because if the O’s choose the alignment you suggest, what happens next year (probably by no later than mid season) when Holliday is ready?

It appears that Bradfield Jr. was drafted to be the longterm CF, no? What do you envision that the orgs plans are for Holliday?

I would like to add to this.

Right now, at 19, Holliday's bat appears to be ahead of his glove.   He is a hard worker.   So I expect him to work on his glove work this off season.    We will not know how much he has progressed until we see him next year.

So how long it takes Holliday to show he's ready to be a major league SS or 2B is a question.   Ortiz appears ready for any infield position now. 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, baltfan said:

How can you possibly say Ortiz is better defensively than Urias unless we are talking about SS which is Urias's weakest position? Urias has a legit GG at third and has looked like a GG fielder at second.  

Because Ortiz is that good, not to mention Urias’ great defense at third was basically one year and he wasn’t as good at second last year.

In other words, like Mateo, defense peaks and Urias didn’t have a great fielder profile earlier in his career.

Ortiz’s defense has always been his calling card. I think the consistency of greatness year in and year out will eclipse Urias.

[Bemorewins]

13 minutes ago, 24fps said:

He's certainly been underrated by Hyde and Elias given how he's been handled at the ML level so far .  Ortiz doesn't need to be as talented as Henderson to be considerably better than Mateo overall. 

I agree with the second statement. Almost any warm body would be better especially offensively than Mateo. But the poster described Ortiz as “a slick fielding, hard hitting” SS. That sounded like Gunnar Henderson to me. So I was asking if the poster thought that Ortiz was as talented. There was a poster here while Westburg was at AAA and Gunnar was struggling with acclimating who said that Westburg was Gunnar’s equivalent as an offensive player. I don’t hear too much of that now though for what it’s worth.

As far as your first statement, I tend to doubt the veracity of that. Elias in particular has probably seen Ortiz more than any poster here. And he is probably quite familiar with who he is as a player.

It wasn’t long ago that posters were screaming for Cowser and were smitten by the prodigious power of Westburg’s 17 HRs by mid June at AAA. (For context, he’s hit 1 in a month at this level).

I hope Ortiz is as awesome as some posters claim that he is. But it may be prudent to take a wait and see approach. Because we have not seen any kind of direct correlation from AAA to the Majors in terms of offensive numbers for ANY (not a single one) of our guys. 

[btdart20]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

If Ortiz is as good as you describe, it makes me wonder why many rankings have him rated in a similar range to Norby, who most posters don’t like much?

If Ortiz is that guy at SS he must be very underrated and probably a similarly talented player as Gunnar Henderson?

Ortiz is usually ranked ahead of Norby even if it's only by 1 or 2 spots.  But rankings aren't linear.  Which is why I like tiers.  I think most people see Ortiz in a tier above Norby. 

Norby's value is completely based on his hit tool and only as a 2B or DH.  Ortiz has talent in every aspect of the game.  From nearly all accounts, he's GG adjacent at the toughest non-C fielding position in the game.  

Last offseason Ortiz was the player nearly every other player said was underrated in various interviews.  And he proved it last year a.  He's been a bit buried behind some superstars and that he spent 2021 recovering from a shoulder(?) injury.  He had a very slow start in 2022, but exploded in July.  Some questioned it as a heater, but he's carried it from AA into AAA last year and into this year.

[Aristotelian]

18 minutes ago, 24fps said:

He's certainly been underrated by Hyde and Elias given how he's been handled at the ML level so far .  Ortiz doesn't need to be as talented as Henderson to be considerably better than Mateo overall. 

We have no idea what their internal ranking of Ortiz is. Pretty much all of the O's prospects have needed at least 300 AB's to be promoted and Joey is just getting there. Westburg took over 600 AB's. 

Aside from that, there are other considerations besides internal ranking to consider when promoting players, such as service time, team need, trade value etc.

It is true that when Ortiz was briefly promoted he was treated as a bench player for two weeks, but that was a reflection of his readiness at the time after being forced on the 40 man roster due to his age. 

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I would like to add to this.

Right now, at 19, Holliday's bat appears to be ahead of his glove.   He is a hard worker.   So I expect him to work on his glove work this off season.    We will not know how much he has progressed until we see him next year.

So how long it takes Holliday to show he's ready to be a major league SS or 2B is a question.   Ortiz appears ready for any infield position now. 

I’m not sure which question that I asked, that this answers.

Or are you saying that Holliday at 19 as the game’s number 1 prospect will/should spend all or most of next season in the Minors? 

I ask because we will be into year 4 of Adley and year 3 of Gunnar by then. So, if he takes let’s say a year or part of it with acclimation. You really have lonely left yourself with 2 years of having your best roster. That’s a really small window IMO. 

[bluedog]

2 hours ago, baltfan said:

You really think Mateo, who hardly plays, is likely to cost the Orioles a playoff spot.  Moreover, you really think that the players will blame him?  You act like he is the every day starter.  He starts occasionally against lefties. 

A team attempting to win the most competitive division in baseball can't afford to carry weak players, even on their bench. Particularly with Hyde's management style, every player is going to see high leverage moments and we need to have the best guys out there if we want to maximize our chances of winning.

[banks703]

25 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I cannot remember but I think it may have been you? My apologies if it was not.

But were you the poster who was advocating for a move of positions of Holliday to 2B or CF?

I ask because if the O’s choose the alignment you suggest, what happens next year (probably by no later than mid season) when Holliday is ready?

It appears that Bradfield Jr. was drafted to be the longterm CF, no? What do you envision that the orgs plans are for Holliday?

I've been pretty outspoken on my thoughts that Holliday does end up at 2B, yeah. I wasn't necessarily advocating for it. It's just how I have him profiled right now as a 19 year old. 

The best thing for the Orioles would be for him to improve enough to be able to stick at SS but I just don't see it, especially not for a Hyde/Elias team that puts so much emphasis on defense up the middle.

Holliday's range at 19 is meh, he's really stiff in his hips right now and his arm is not what you would want from your everyday SS (in two years he's added 1mph to his throwing velo but it's still below average for a ML SS). All of these areas can and will likely improve as he matures physically and continues to receive the best coaching in the sport. I just don't see them moving Gunnar if he continues to show out at SS or Joey who is far and away the best SS in the org, for Holliday is going to be a below average defensive SS. 

Going into his senior year his draft profile suggested that a move to CF was possible but he made a lot of strides defensively his senior year. It wouldn't shock me to see him end up in the outfield, especially if say, Joey is promoted and performs remotely close to what he's done in Norfolk these last two years, Gunnar is playing MVP level third base and JW has solidified his hold on 2B.. Jackson Holliday's bat plays at the ML level right now so if continues to light the world on fire at every level he's assigned, I think they find a place for him in the field until everything gets settled long-term. He could bounce around the infield and play in the outfield. I think they could do that now with JW if they wanted.

I think for Holliday to be the best player that he can be for the O's, it's going to be at 2B. CF does seem like a bit of stretch now with the drafting of EBJ but again, if the O's want an elite bat, which is ultimately why Holliday was drafted 1:1, they could find a spot for him somewhere in the field. 

[btdart20]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

But the poster described Ortiz as “a slick fielding, hard hitting” SS. That sounded like Gunnar Henderson to me. So I was asking if the poster thought that Ortiz was as talented. There was a poster here while Westburg was at AAA and Gunnar was struggling with acclimating who said that Westburg was Gunnar’s equivalent as an offensive player. I don’t hear too much of that now though for what it’s worth.

As far as your first statement, I tend to doubt the veracity of that. Elias in particular has probably seen Ortiz more than any poster here. And he is probably quite familiar with who he is as a player.

Gunnar is special.  I wouldn't go that far. 

But Ortiz has been batting 3rd in that stacked Norfolk lineup!  Norby, Kjerstad, Ortiz, Stowers, Mayo...  That's a vote of confidence in Ortiz' bat.  

[banks703]

34 minutes ago, 24fps said:

He's certainly been underrated by Hyde and Elias given how he's been handled at the ML level so far .  Ortiz doesn't need to be as talented as Henderson to be considerably better than Mateo overall. 

I don't know if he's necessarily been underrated. Given the org's priority on data and analytics. I am confident that the know exactly what they have in Joey. I can only see what I can see with my own eyes. I don't have access to all of the info that they have but I've seen A LOT of Joey's minor league career and can state with full confidence that he is the best defensive infielder in the org. Only MAYBE Ced and EBJ have a leg up on Joey as the overall best defender in the organization. Because of his defensive prowess and the fact that he's hit VERY well these last two years in Norfolk, it is VERY confusing for me that he's been held down in Norfolk while Jorge has been the black hole in the lineup that he has been the last three months.

The only thought that I can muster is that because he caught fire when he was optioned back to Norfolk (and the fact that they kept winning in spite of little production from Jorge and they just held out hope that Jorge would figure it out at some point) they let Joey rake with the idea that it would increase his trade value. That is the only way that I can reconcile the situation in my head. 

I think it will be a mistake if they trade Joey Ortiz. I personally feel that he is going to have a ten year run as a Jack Wilson type of player but maybe they really do feel that they can let Gunnar stick at SS or that Holliday can improve enough to be serviceable there. Again, they have a lot more information that I have and I trust their decision making (for the most part) but the situation with Joey and Jorge is genuinely a head scratcher for me unless they're hoping to land a TOR pitcher for a package that includes Joey. 

[BRobinsonfan]

19 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I agree with the second statement. Almost any warm body would be better especially offensively than Mateo. But the poster described Ortiz as “a slick fielding, hard hitting” SS. That sounded like Gunnar Henderson to me. So I was asking if the poster thought that Ortiz was as talented. There was a poster here while Westburg was at AAA and Gunnar was struggling with acclimating who said that Westburg was Gunnar’s equivalent as an offensive player. I don’t hear too much of that now though for what it’s worth.

As far as your first statement, I tend to doubt the veracity of that. Elias in particular has probably seen Ortiz more than any poster here. And he is probably quite familiar with who he is as a player.

It wasn’t long ago that posters were screaming for Cowser and were smitten by the prodigious power of Westburg’s 17 HRs by mid June at AAA. (For context, he’s hit 1 in a month at this level).

I hope Ortiz is as awesome as some posters claim that he is. But it may be prudent to take a wait and see approach. Because we have not seen any kind of direct correlation from AAA to the Majors in terms of offensive numbers for ANY (not a single one) of our guys. 

I simply mean that I think Ortiz is better than Mateo at this point.  When you're in the middle of a pennant race with a legitimate chance at the postseason I think you play the odds. 

[geschinger]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

I cannot remember but I think it may have been you? My apologies if it was not.

But were you the poster who was advocating for a move of positions of Holliday to 2B or CF?

I ask because if the O’s choose the alignment you suggest, what happens next year (probably by no later than mid season) when Holliday is ready?

It appears that Bradfield Jr. was drafted to be the longterm CF, no? What do you envision that the orgs plans are for Holliday?

I'm not advocating moving Holliday anywhere at this point, but when he's ready, if the Orioles have a need at a position other than SS that he could fill and optimize the Orioles roster/lineup there should be little hesitation to do so.  It would be a similar situation to when Machado - another high pick who was drafted to be the long-term SS - made his debut and ended up sticking at 3B.

[banks703]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Because Ortiz is that good, not to mention Urias’ great defense at third was basically one year and he wasn’t as good at second last year.

In other words, like Mateo, defense peaks and Urias didn’t have a great fielder profile earlier in his career.

Ortiz’s defense has always been his calling card. I think the consistency of greatness year in and year out will eclipse Urias.

Facts. Joey and Ramon are very similar players but Joey looks to me to be a tick above Ramon in virtually everything (aside from major league experience). Perhaps the O's see a world where they move Ramon and Joey becomes that Ramon-type of player who floats around the IF (remember, Ramon was brought in as a SS and in 2021 played more games at SS than he played at 3B and 2B combined). I personally think that would be a waste of Joey's excellence at SS but moving on from Jorge is inevitable as is moving on from Ramon.

If you ask me right now, for 2024 would I be alright with trading Ramon, Jorge and Frazier for Joey, Urias and Holliday (at some point), I'd say hell yeah though I do think that Joey makes Ramon somewhat redundant. 

[Paul in Virginia]