Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[crawjo]

4 minutes ago, accinfo said:

There is no bigger fan of Mike Mussina than me but he didn’t have a better career then Jim Palmer.  Palmer won 3 Cy Young awards and it should have been 4, but Yankee Goose Gosage stole one.  If he won his last game in 1982 he would have won another.  He is the winningest pitcher of the 1970’s.  Mussina was a great well deserving Hall Of Fame pitcher but not better than Palmer.  

I prefer the advanced stats. Mussina has 82.8 career bWAR; Palmer has 68.5. If you put Mussina in front of the defense Palmer had, he would have won more games than Palmer did. (Actually, he won more games anyway...270 to 268.) Also, Palmer did not deserve the 1976 Cy Young Award (Fidrych did). I've even heard Palmer say that if Mussina had spent his whole career in Baltimore, he would have been the greatest pitcher in Orioles history. Both are Hall of Famers deservedly....Mussina was better.
 

Edited August 1, 2023 by crawjo

[tntoriole]

37 minutes ago, crawjo said:

Mussina had a better career than Palmer. Palmer benefited enormously from playing in front of one of the greatest defenses in the history of baseball. Brooks Robinson is arguably the greatest defensive third baseman ever. Mark Belanger is arguably the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Paul Blair was an elite defensive center fielder, maybe top 10 or 15 all time defensively. When you have that defense behind you, it will have a significant impact on your ERA. 

   The issue is not necessarily who was the better pitcher in the abstract but who was the better Oriole pitcher.  Nearly half of Mussina’s 270 wins were as a MFY.  How in the world does that top Jim as the best Oriole pitcher? 
 

[ledzepp8]

I don't think they should but at the same time I really don't care. It wouldn't upset me, yet I wouldn't really celebrate it either.  I think the Orioles are right in the sweet spot of retiring numbers. It should be exclusive and not done for every Tom, Dick and Harry that played for you, like the Yankees or Celtics. 

[crawjo]

6 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

   The issue is not necessarily who was the better pitcher in the abstract but who was the better Oriole pitcher.  Nearly half of Mussina’s 270 wins were as a MFY.  How in the world does that top Jim as the best Oriole pitcher? 
 

He doesn't. I never said he did. His contributions to the Orioles are similar to Murray's contributions. Mussina's number should be retired. It's a mistake that it wasn't 't, but it's too late to undo now because Rutschman has the number. It just bothers me that it played out the way it did. 

[linedrive]

Yes, of course the O's should retire Mussina's number. I thought it was a no-brainer, and I always blamed the ownership for failing to resign him when they had the chance. But now they should do everything they can to bring him back and retire his number.

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, crawjo said:

He doesn't. I never said he did. His contributions to the Orioles are similar to Murray's contributions. Mussina's number should be retired. It's a mistake that it wasn't 't, but it's too late to undo now because Rutschman has the number. It just bothers me that it played out the way it did. 

Doesn’t bother me one bit.  He became a mainly a Yankee.. they can retire his number 

[DrungoHazewood]

11 hours ago, ledzepp8 said:

I don't think they should but at the same time I really don't care. It wouldn't upset me, yet I wouldn't really celebrate it either.  I think the Orioles are right in the sweet spot of retiring numbers. It should be exclusive and not done for every Tom, Dick and Harry that played for you, like the Yankees or Celtics. 

I look forward to the day in 10-15 years when the Yanks have to start handing out uniforms with negative numbers and fractions and scientific notation because they've retired all the one- and two-digit integers. They could go back to having the monument area in play like in the original Yankee stadium and any line drive up the LF gap is like trying to shop in Big Lots with the boxes all over the aisles.

[dystopia]

There really isn’t an argument for retiring his number. 

[DrungoHazewood]

26 minutes ago, dystopia said:

There really isn’t an argument for retiring his number. 

Deserving Hall of Fame pitcher who spent the bulk of his career with the Orioles.  Whether or not you agree with that argument, it's still clearly an argument.

[emmett16]

12 hours ago, crawjo said:

I prefer the advanced stats. Mussina has 82.8 career bWAR; Palmer has 68.5. If you put Mussina in front of the defense Palmer had, he would have won more games than Palmer did. (Actually, he won more games anyway...270 to 268.) Also, Palmer did not deserve the 1976 Cy Young Award (Fidrych did). I've even heard Palmer say that if Mussina had spent his whole career in Baltimore, he would have been the greatest pitcher in Orioles history. Both are Hall of Famers deservedly....Mussina was better.
 

Nolan Ryan has some beef in 1973 as well…..Pretty absurd he didn’t win.

Ryan 383 strike outs 2.49 FIP (two no hitters)

Palmer 158 strike outs 3.38 FIP

 

 Can someone explain that to me? 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by emmett16

[dystopia]

48 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Deserving Hall of Fame pitcher who spent the bulk of his career with the Orioles.  Whether or not you agree with that argument, it's still clearly an argument.

Number retirement should be a step above HoF. He’d be the weakest Oriole to have his number retired by far. And the fact that he chose to sign with the Yankees, and go into the HoF as a Yankee, is a big mark against him. 

[foxfield]

So what should the criteria be?  I don't mean for Mussina.  I mean for anyone.

I think if anyone objectively looks at this and makes a list of the criteria using the already retired numbers you see a pattern.

Earl, Brooks, Cal, Frank, Jim and Eddie

Commonalites:  Hall of Fame, WS Winner, Significant achievement with Orioles.

Individualites:  

Earl won 100 games 5 times went to 4 WS, won one.

Brooks was an annual GG and 1970 WS MVP 2 time WS Winner.  Played his entire career in Baltimore.

Eddie never won an MVP, but won a WS and hit 500 HR and had 300 hits. (Not all with Baltimore)

Frank didn't play most of his career here. But won a League, All Star AND WS MVP in 1966 and another WS in 70.

Cal had very little playoff experience but won a WS in 83 2 AL MVP and one All Star MVP. Played his entire career in Baltimore.

Palmer won 3 CY awards and not only played his entire career in Baltimore, pitched for every single Oriole team that made it to the WS and is the only pitcher to WIN a WS game in 3 different decades. And most people know he never gave up a grand slam.  But he also never gave up back to back homers.

______________

Mike Mussina was a great pitcher and maybe the best ever to wear an Oriole uniform.  He shouldn't be penalized for going to NY.  That happened because of Angelos.  And man o man did Mussina shine in the playoffs in the 90s for us.  But I do see separation between Mussina and the others above because of no WS in Baltimore.

I think anyone denigrating Mussina though is wrong.  But that's just my opinion.

Have a nice deadline day everyone.

Edited August 1, 2023 by foxfield

[DrungoHazewood]

48 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Nolan Ryan has some beef in 1973 as well…..Pretty absurd he didn’t win.

Ryan 383 strike outs 2.49 FIP (two no hitters)

Palmer 158 strike outs 3.38 FIP

 

 Can someone explain that to me? 

 

It was 1973. Palmer won 22 and led the league, Ryan won 21. That's pretty much it.

Ryan didn't reach mythical status until much later. Yes people were impressed by the no-hitters. But he led the league in walks by a country mile every year, and his W/L records were 10-14, 19-16, 17-18 as often, or more often, than 22-16.  In the middle of his career, watching him pitch every week, it was probably easier to notice that he was a terrible fielder, a bad hitter even for a pitcher, and he allowed an ungodly number of steals.

And things like WAR and FIP wouldn't exit for 30+ years. 

[dystopia]

3 minutes ago, foxfield said:

So what should the criteria be?  I don't mean for Mussina.  I mean for anyone.

I think if anyone objectively looks at this and makes a list of the criteria using the already retired numbers you see a pattern.

Earl, Brooks, Cal, Frank, Jim and Eddie

Commonalites:  Hall of Fame, WS Winner, Significant achievement with Orioles.

Individualites:  

Earl won 100 games 5 times went to 4 WS, won one.

Brooks was an annual GG and 1970 WS MVP 2 time WS Winner.  Played his entire career in Baltimore.

Eddie never won an MVP, but won a WS and hit 500 HR and had 300 hits. (Not all with Baltimore)

Frank didn't play most of his career here. But won a League, All Star AND WS MVP in 1966 and another WS in 70.

Cal had very little playoff experience but won a WS in 83 2 AL MVP and one All Star MVP. Played his entire career in Baltimore.

Palmer won 3 CY awards and not only played his entire career in Baltimore, pitched for every single Oriole team that made it to the WS and is the only pitcher to WIN a WS game in 3 different decades. And most people know he never gave up a grand slam.  But he also never gave up back to back homers.

______________

Mike Mussina was a great pitcher and maybe the best ever.  He shouldn't be penalized for going to NY.  That happened because of Angelos.  And man o man did Mussina shine in the playoffs in the 90s for us.  But I do see separation between Mussina and the others above because of no WS in Baltimore.

I think anyone denigrating Mussina though is wrong.  But that's just my opinion.

Have a nice deadline day everyone.

I’m sorry did you just say Mike Mussina “may be the best ever” with a straight face? If so you’ve had too many hits on the crack pipe. 

[accinfo]

24 minutes ago, dystopia said:

Number retirement should be a step above HoF. He’d be the weakest Oriole to have his number retired by far. And the fact that he chose to sign with the Yankees, and go into the HoF as a Yankee, is a big mark against him. 

He didn’t choose to go in the HOF as a Yankee.  He choose not to have either team’s logo.