Angelos wanted two year lease extension

[Billy F-Face3]

5 hours ago, TradeAngelos said:

Yeah Foxboro is in the middle of f'ing nowhere. Lots of land to redevelop. Where is this vast land west of Harborplace you speak of? And this vast land to the east that the Ravens interests can be "transferred" to? LOL. 

Foxboro is a nightmare to get in and out of. Traffic is always bottled up and jammed causing delays that last for hours. I talked to an uber Driver who said he always had to go at least 6 hours before game/event time just so people weren't late.

[eddie83]

13 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

If Angelos doesn’t develop that land then who will?  Might as well be him. At least it will benefit us the fans. 

The parking lots are there for a reason, to park. JA doesn’t own the land south of M&T so he is trying to leverage the Orioles to line his own pockets. It’s despicable. 

[Going Underground]

41 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

The stadium has been there for 30 years. Only the Casino and Too Golf has been built. As a fan, and someone that lives 15 mins south, I’d like to see them put some more stuff down there. Nobody else has been able to do anything down there other than gambling. 

Has been a  plan for the area but moving slower then hoped. The Paramount concert hall is tangled in red tape. The hotel should be built next to the casino but what year who knows. .The Warner Entertainment District is moving but slow. Covid slowed some construction also. 

[Going Underground]

As I have said before if John Angelos dosen't work with the CBAC,Horseshoe real estate division ,both projects will fail. Both projects would compete against each other and the Walk is almost all privately funded.

Renderings Revealed for Horseshoe Casino’s ‘Warner Street District’
https://www.southbmore.com/2020/06/18/renderings-revealed-for-horseshoe-casinos-warner-street-district/

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Going Underground

[Billy F-Face3]

6 hours ago, SemperFi said:

-MLB's most fervent desire for the franchise is that the  PA plays out, the Angelos family sells and disappears.  Allowing them to relocate likely means continued Angelos ownership.

I was looking into the litigation cases, as well as Manfred's statements a little farther. I found some articles from last year and then from January to July of this year that had direct quotes.

Georgia Angelos (Peter's wife and holder of his estate) is on record from one of the cases saying she determined it would be in the family's best interest to sell the Orioles. 

From article: "Georgia Angelos has stated in court documents that she determined it was in the best interest of the family to sell the Orioles, a decision that her husband empowered her to make."

Also, Louis claimed John wants total control over the Orioles including "the option to move the team, preferably to Nashville where he has a home." We see now after the fact that Louis was telling the truth in his lawsuit, because John is holding up the lease and just suggested only a 2 year extension... just enough time for him to scheme a plan and buy off some influential people.

What has Manfred said? If you read his actual quotes, he has not been as assertive as some here have been led to believe. Manfred's statemens were not absolute statements. They were speculative (leading the audience) type of statements such as "I expect... I hope... I think you can count on the team to stay in Baltimore" etc. The most assertive answer he ever gave on the topic was: "As long as I have this job, I think you can count on the fact the Orioles are going to be in Baltimore,”

How long will Manfred have the job? Nobody seems have asked that important detail.. and why does he just think? He's the commissioner... Why can't he say he wouldn't allow the team to move under any circumstances? Saying he "thinks"? That doesn't seem very concrete. I have seen plenty of PR people, politicians, and public faces and been around the block for too long. This is how they operate. Manfred also said "I think you can count on". Which is an absolutely worthless, and a total speculate comment in the world of political and financial interests and legal contracts. 

The only real legally binding facts we have right now (besides the family's public litigations against each other) is that the lease expires in 4 months and John has been stonewalling an agreement while suggesting to forget about the original 5 year plan and just do a short 2 year extension.

Until something is signed that is legally binding, the PR spinmeisters will continue to be out their trying to spin public opinion of fans in the direction they want them to believe while something different is happening behind closed doors. People should never under estimate the sleight of hand tactics public entities will use to form public opinion.

[Getz]

6 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

Maybe piling on here, but the fact that posts about the Orioles moving keep popping up suggests that it might be useful.

First, one of the pillars of MLB's business strategy is enabling teams to extract as much money as possible from local governments to build new stadiums and to maintain and renovate aging ones.  As one piece of that strategy, MLB has maintained that a team canl succeed anywhere if it has an appealing ballpark. That's why Oakland and Tampa Bay have been singled out and will be permitted to move if they want: MLB attributes their problems to their terrible ball parks. Unless and until Camden Yards falls into serious disrepair, the owners will not approve of the team moving. even if there's an appealing opportunity. (Nashville, by the way, is not available.) 

The statement that MLB wants the Angeloses to sell the team is no doubt true, but I think it's a little more complicated than that. It's virtually certain that John/Lou will sell after their father dies and they inherit control of the team. But the owners had a chance to force a sale when Peter Angelos signed a power of attorney in favor of his wife, transferring control of the team to her. The owners could have voted not to approve that transfer, forcing a sale of the team and creating an obligation for Peter to pay probably hundreds of millions of dollars in capital gains taxes.

There are three logical possibilities. There are three possibilities. Number one: MLB's owners have a generous spirit toward the Angeloses and are willing to forgive and forget, and in that spirit they will allow John/Lou own the team after Peter dies. Number two: When they learned of the power of attorney, the owners decided to be nice guys and they approved of control of the team passing to Georgia Angelos, but they have left open the approval of control passing to John/Lou when Peter dies.  Number three: there's a deal under which the Angeloses are permitted to retain ownership while Peter is alive but must sell the team after Peter's death, allowing the Angeloses to avoid capital gains taxes  while enabling MLB to get rid of the Angeloses when the inevitable happens.

I know which one makes the most sense to me, and I can't think of any other explanations for what's happened.

Why are you so certain that John and Lou will sell after their father dies?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Getz said:

Why are you so certain that John and Lou will sell after their father dies?

The inheritance tax should force them.

[accinfo]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The inheritance tax should force them.

Corn is 100% correct.  40% federal tax on all property value over $13 million.  Plus at least 10% from the State of Maryland.  The IRS and State of MD won’t finance that.  Just assuming $3 billion that is $1.5 billion due.  I don’t see anyway they can come up with that money with the exception of taking on partners  by selling off parts of the Orioles.  Also baseball would have to approve them as owners.   I don’t see anyway that is happening because they have no other significant income stream.  There will be plenty of people who would like to own this team with much deeper pockets.

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, accinfo said:

Corn is 100% correct.  40% federal tax on all property value over $13 million.  Plus at least 10% from the State of Maryland.  The IRS and State of MD won’t finance that.  Just assuming $3 billion that is $1.5 billion due.  I don’t see anyway they can come up with that money with the exception of taking on partners  by selling off parts of the Orioles.  Also baseball would have to approve them as owners.   I don’t see anyway that is happening because they have no other significant income stream.  There will be plenty of people who would like to own this team with much deeper pockets.

I suppose it would have been possible a few years ago for them to sell off MASN and keep the team.  I don't think it's worth enough as an asset at this point.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[accinfo]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I suppose it would have been possible a few years ago for them to sell of MASN and keep the team.  I don't think it's worth enough as an asset at this point.

Yes and that may have been the plan, but cable cutting has devalued that asset big time.  

[drjohnnyfever1]

29 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

As I have said before if John Angelos dosen't work with the GBAC,Horseshoe real estate division ,both projects will fail. Both projects would compete against each other and the Walk is almost all privately funded.

Renderings Revealed for Horseshoe Casino’s ‘Warner Street District’
https://www.southbmore.com/2020/06/18/renderings-revealed-for-horseshoe-casinos-warner-street-district/

 

Those renderings look really interesting.  We used to park at the Gameday Warehouse, which I think is right behind the Paramount's location on Warner Street on the other side of the RR tracks across the street from TopGolf's location.  So it looks like this is already in the works?  Or is this just hopeful planning that hinges on present owners selling off?

Is this also the area JA is interested in using the 300M he covets?  That doesn't make much sense.  Or is he wanting something between the two stadiums where Lots A-C are located?  That would make more sense, but the fact that the Walk is privately funded and off MSA land throws a huge wrench in if he desires something there.  Why would MSA considering giving him additional capital to do something outside of the land controlled by the stadiums when there's already a privately funded plan in place?  I bet he sees the development going on near M&T as unfairly benefiting the Ravens and wants his. 

I guess the real question is what he intends to do with the funds?  If he's expecting a blank check he's showing his delusions.

[TradeAngelos]

1 hour ago, LookitsPuck said:

Within 45 minutes to 1.5 hours from Baltimore you have: DC (nearly 700k), Philadelphia (1.6 million). Baltimore City and County combined is nearly 1.5m. I can go on if you go 3 hours out.

Official census data on Nashville shows an estimated population (as of 2022) of 684k. That's down from what they collected in 2020 (690k). To put things in perspective, the population of Baltimore County in 2020 was 854k, but in 2022 (estimated) was 846k. Both of those markets were down ~1%. Nashville isn't some panacea. It's a risk. 

Nashville is growing by leaps and bounds. People actually want to live there, unlike Baltimore City. The "metro" is up over 7% in the past 4 years. Baltimore metro has basically been flat for 15 yrs. 

Spare me including DC and Philly in the argument for why Baltimore market is bigger/better.  There aint 2.4m in this metro market to draw from I don't care who says there is. That is nonsense unless you fudge the numbers. The Orioles draw from a small radius outside the city these days. Nashville's market for city and surrounding (immediate) counties would destroy the potential of Baltimore City in the long term (and arguably short term).  Because that is a market on the upswing, while Baltimore is going the opposite direction. These things matter just as much as a random population or metro area number. 

Just look at the attendance numbers. O's on pace for 1.8m vs a 2.4m average last time the were good a decade ago. You think people aren't paying attention to those numbers, and projecting the future off of them? That is 30% short of where they were not that long ago. Those are the numbers that matter. And those numbers have been going in the wrong direction for a decade, despite the winning of the past year plus. 

If the franchise was a free agent and you asked 50 billionaire prospective owners which city they would like to call home, 50 are saying Nashville. For good reason. As long as the petulant little child owner has nothing to do with the team anymore. 

 

[TradeAngelos]

53 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I was looking into the litigation cases, as well as Manfred's statements a little farther. I found some articles from last year and then from January to July of this year that had direct quotes.

Georgia Angelos (Peter's wife and holder of his estate) is on record from one of the cases saying she determined it would be in the family's best interest to sell the Orioles. 

From article: "Georgia Angelos has stated in court documents that she determined it was in the best interest of the family to sell the Orioles, a decision that her husband empowered her to make."

Also, Louis claimed John wants total control over the Orioles including "the option to move the team, preferably to Nashville where he has a home." We see now after the fact that Louis was telling the truth in his lawsuit, because John is holding up the lease and just suggested only a 2 year extension... just enough time for him to scheme a plan and buy off some influential people.

What has Manfred said? If you read his actual quotes, he has not been as assertive as some here have been led to believe. Manfred's statemens were not absolute statements. They were speculative (leading the audience) type of statements such as "I expect... I hope... I think you can count on the team to stay in Baltimore" etc. The most assertive answer he ever gave on the topic was: "As long as I have this job, I think you can count on the fact the Orioles are going to be in Baltimore,”

How long will Manfred have the job? Nobody seems have asked that important detail.. and why does he just think? He's the commissioner... Why can't he say he wouldn't allow the team to move under any circumstances? Saying he "thinks"? That doesn't seem very concrete. I have seen plenty of PR people, politicians, and public faces and been around the block for too long. This is how they operate. Manfred also said "I think you can count on". Which is an absolutely worthless, and a total speculate comment in the world of political and financial interests and legal contracts. 

The only real legally binding facts we have right now (besides the family's public litigations against each other) is that the lease expires in 4 months and John has been stonewalling an agreement while suggesting to forget about the original 5 year plan and just do a short 2 year extension.

Until something is signed that is legally binding, the PR spinmeisters will continue to be out their trying to spin public opinion of fans in the direction they want them to believe while something different is happening behind closed doors. People should never under estimate the sleight of hand tactics public entities will use to form public opinion.

Excellent post! 

[Going Underground]

45 minutes ago, drjohnnyfever1 said:

Those renderings look really interesting.  We used to park at the Gameday Warehouse, which I think is right behind the Paramount's location on Warner Street on the other side of the RR tracks across the street from TopGolf's location.  So it looks like this is already in the works?  Or is this just hopeful planning that hinges on present owners selling off?

Is this also the area JA is interested in using the 300M he covets?  That doesn't make much sense.  Or is he wanting something between the two stadiums where Lots A-C are located?  That would make more sense, but the fact that the Walk is privately funded and off MSA land throws a huge wrench in if he desires something there.  Why would MSA considering giving him additional capital to do something outside of the land controlled by the stadiums when there's already a privately funded plan in place?  I bet he sees the development going on near M&T as unfairly benefiting the Ravens and wants his. 

I guess the real question is what he intends to do with the funds?  If he's expecting a blank check he's showing his delusions.

He wants to built on the parking lots. CBAC has bought up all the land on Warner St and some other parcels except the storage building. The Walk is going forward but slow.Financing is tougher and more expensive.  The Paramount was to open in June but it is in limbo. Can't really discuss this at the present but there is an article about this in the Baltimore Business Journal.  Would have been really great for the city. Just look at the shows for the Paramount on Long Island. Hotel is over two years away,if built. Having two places competing for the same entertainment dollars a mile or so away in a city the size of Baltimore would not work.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Going Underground

[OrangeTurtle]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:41 AM, Sports Guy said:

No doubt. Follow the money. Whether it’s a stadium, a vaccine, a school, whatever…the money is the driving force.  Let’s not pretend it’s anything more than that.

These corrupt POS hold everyone hostage while they get rich and they turn around and charge us higher taxes because of it.

Politics free board, eh? Cute inclusion of "vaccine" there.