Does this Tejada mess change things for Raffy...?

[LookitsPuck]

Uhm, Winstrol is not an outmoded steroid...or whatever you're referring to it as.

Other cases:

1988 - Ben Johnson (Olympic runner)

1997 - Olimpiada Ivanova (race walker)

1999 - Vita Pavlysh (sprinter)

2002 - Fernando Vargas (boxer)

2003 - Liudmyla Blonska (Olympic heptathlete)

2003 - Tim Sylvia (MMC, former UFC heavyweight champion)

2004 - Vita Pavlysh

2005 - Salvador Carmona (soccer)

2006 - Salvador Carmona

2006 - Kimo Leopoldo (MMA)

2006 - Halina Karnatsevich (runner)

2007 - Rey Mysterio (wrestler)

2007 - Phil Baroni (UFC and PRIDE fighter)

2008 - Liudmyla Blonska

There are more as well. Too lazy to list all of them.

In addition, Barry Bonds was accused of using it in Game of Shadows. He was also using the Cream and the Clear (as well as HGH). Roger Clemens as well (who also used the Cream, the Clear, HGH).

You can stack these, man. It happens all the time. Their personal trainers will map out their cycling regimens, and it's not uncommon for athletes to be taking 2, 3, even 4 types of steroids all at similar time periods coupled with HGH.

[OsEatAlEast]

Uhh, no. Winstrol only lasts at most 2 months. And that's the injection. If we're talking about the tablets? 3 weeks at best. The longest lasting steroid (and used the most by athletes) is Deca-Durabolin, which can last 17-18 months. 2nd to that is NPP which is a year. The closest one after is EQ which is 4-5 months. Winstrol lasts relatively short.

When we're talking about players and steroid trainers administrating this thing, I have no doubt in my mind that some players may be somewhat ignorant to the test times (and even their trainers). I, however, have absolutely no patience and no respect for players that outright lie. Palmeiro is a filthy liar, and I have no problem with him never making the HOF.

Sorry man I was going on memory of an article I read in MD magazine about 9 years ago. I don't know my memory must be fuzzy but I thought Deca was the mild one. Although the 2 months thing is what is in my mind(which is way to long for someone being tested).

By EQ you mean the horse steroid Equipose right?

[LookitsPuck]

Yessir! That's the one.

[TommyD4207]

Don't take what I said out of context.

This is absolutely hillarious coming from you.

This may well be the biggest act of hypocrisy that I've ever seen.

[El Gordo]

Uhm, Winstrol is not an outmoded steroid...or whatever you're referring to it as.

Other cases:

1988 - Ben Johnson (Olympic runner)

1997 - Olimpiada Ivanova (race walker)

1999 - Vita Pavlysh (sprinter)

2002 - Fernando Vargas (boxer)

2003 - Liudmyla Blonska (Olympic heptathlete)

2003 - Tim Sylvia (MMC, former UFC heavyweight champion)

2004 - Vita Pavlysh

2005 - Salvador Carmona (soccer)

2006 - Salvador Carmona

2006 - Kimo Leopoldo (MMA)

2006 - Halina Karnatsevich (runner)

2007 - Rey Mysterio (wrestler)

2007 - Phil Baroni (UFC and PRIDE fighter)

2008 - Liudmyla Blonska

There are more as well. Too lazy to list all of them.

In addition, Barry Bonds was accused of using it in Game of Shadows. He was also using the Cream and the Clear (as well as HGH). Roger Clemens as well (who also used the Cream, the Clear, HGH).

You can stack these, man. It happens all the time. Their personal trainers will map out their cycling regimens, and it's not uncommon for athletes to be taking 2, 3, even 4 types of steroids all at similar time periods coupled with HGH.

Not what I read at the time but here's an article that supports what I'm saying.

"Experts are mildly surprised that in this day and age, college kids would be using steroids. It's easy for drug tests to find stanozolol and its "chemical country cousins," as Charles E. Yesalis calls them, and there are other supplements that are cheaper and easier to get, as well as being less detectable.

"It's outmoded, and anybody who's drug-tested would be foolhardy to take that," says Mr. Yesalis, an epidemiologist at Pennsylvania State University at University Park. "Elite athletes stay away from traditional anabolic steroids. They use testosterone creams or gels, which dramatically reduce the chance of getting caught, in conjunction with insulin or insulinlike growth factor, and we don't even have a test for those."

http://transition.corante.com/archives/2004/01/27/im_a_drug_story_addict.php Scrol down to #2 Welch Suggs entry.

[LookitsPuck]

It's still a potent steroid and still used a lot today. It's definitely detectable. But here's the thing, steroid testing in baseball even in 2005 was a joke. Hell, if it was true that people were tipping players off, it makes it even more laughable.

If guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are piggy backing stuff like Winstrol in addition to their designer steroids like the Cream and the Clear, then is it not out of the realm of possibility that Palmeiro did as well? We're talking about a player who failed a steroid test for Winstrol, and was called out by Canseco for not only that steroid but others.

[LookitsPuck]

This is absolutely hillarious coming from you.

This may well be the biggest act of hypocrisy that I've ever seen.

You're like a flea. If you're going to try and relate this to your ridiculous Red Sox assertion from the other day, well, there is no hope.

[El Gordo]

It's still a potent steroid and still used a lot today. It's definitely detectable. But here's the thing, steroid testing in baseball even in 2005 was a joke. Hell, if it was true that people were tipping players off, it makes it even more laughable.

If guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are piggy backing stuff like Winstrol in addition to their designer steroids like the Cream and the Clear, then is it not out of the realm of possibility that Palmeiro did as well? We're talking about a player who failed a steroid test for Winstrol, and was called out by Canseco for not only that steroid but others.

If it was that big of a joke in '05 how come Aroid annd Bonds and 103 others got caught in 2003 and earlier? If Charles E. Yesalis http://experts.psu.edu/faculty.php?id=34 says it's outmoded in an article in 2004, I'll take his word for over that of an OH poster who substitutes hyperbole for argument, has a friend who knows some players, and read Game of Shadows once.

[LookitsPuck]

And here come the personal attacks. And you guys wonder why I go off on y'all.

Listen. Arod failed in 2003 because it was an ANONYMOUS DRUG TESTING to determine if random drug testing was needed in MLB. It was leaked, and shouldn't have been leaked. If the world was perfect, it wouldn't have been leaked and noone would have known about it. As for Bonds, the federal government was after BALCO and his steroid cycles were found and his trainer was being prosecuted by the government.

You don't even know what the damn word outmoded is. Truth be told, Winstrol is STILL used in professional sports. And you can put your fingers in your ears and hold your breath until you're blue in the face, and it won't change.a.single.thing.

And for every doctor you find that says one thing, another will say something else. I'm not the only one saying this. Winstrol is still very much used. I don't even know what you're yammering on about anymore. Raffy used steroids. He knew it. He's been accused by his peers. He tested positive for Winstrol. That's it. You're trying to defend a guilty man on principle that Winstrol is an outdated steroid and noone else is using it. And if they are, they're dumb. I think it's ludicrous. But keep fighting your fight, however unfounded it is.

Oh, and laugh.out.loud for you comparing 2005 to 2003 and before. Baseball was a playground for steroids 2003 and before.

Oh, and laugh.out.loud for you ignoring the players and athletes that STILL get caught to.this.day with Winstrol.

[LookitsPuck]

Oh, hell. Here's another stumper for you. IF Raffy didn't know about the B12 shot being Winstrol, then wouldn't that mean Miggy was using Winstrol as well? An outmoded steroid? Or is there some grand scheme for Miggy to inject Raffy with Winstrol, whilst claiming it was B12, and never use it himself. Quite the conspiracy theory going on here, Gordo.

[LookitsPuck]

Annnnnnd some more:

The person who said that Palmeiro tested positive for stanozolol did not want to be identified because the testing policy prohibits anyone in baseball from disclosing information about test results without authorization.

...Palmeiro said Monday that he had never intentionally taken steroids, but stanozolol does not come in dietary supplements and is among the most popular steroids on the market. It can be ingested or injected and usually remains in a person's system for at least a month.

"It's a mildly strong to strong steroid," said Dr. Gary Wadler, a professor at New York University who is an expert in sports doping. "Potent is the word I would use."

...In 2003 and 2004, Major League Baseball reported 128 positive steroid tests, including 74 for the steroid nandrolone (known commercially as Deca-Durabolin) and 37 for stanozolol. But last year, only one positive test was for nandrolone and 11 positive tests were for stanozolol, an indication of a changing trend.

Dr. Harrison G. Pope, a Harvard professor, psychiatrist and steroids expert, said nandrolone is detectable in the body for a much longer period than stanozolol. Nandrolone also was common in dietary supplements before it was added to the list of controlled substances in 2005.

37 players tested positive for Winstrol in 2K3/2K4. And 11 in 2005. But I thought it was outmoded?

[TommyD4207]

You're like a flea. If you're going to try and relate this to your ridiculous Red Sox assertion from the other day, well, there is no hope.

Actually, I was hoping you were either going to admit you were wrong about the Red Sox/Royals with Calvin Pickering or if you were going to either back up your case. Looks like neither is the case, and that you're going to continue pick out one little part of my post, which you got irate when you accused rshack of doing the same.

It really is hillarious. You have no idea.

Edit: Thanks for the negative rep. Don't worry, I got much, much more rep from owning you last night than your little cheapshot does to my rep. Not that I really care, in any case, but you seem to think that it would matter to me so I thought I'd let you know.

[LookitsPuck]

Wrong thread, Tommy. If you want to discuss this with me, private message me, or leave it be.

[TommyD4207]

Wrong thread, Tommy. If you want to discuss this with me, private message me, or leave it be.

Or, you know, you could actually respond in the thread. I mean, that's the purpose. The purpose of an argument is to actually respond to what the person says. You failed to do that last night, so I was wondering if you were ever going to. Apparently not, I'm not disappointed at all, it's just sad that you apparently aren't willing to actually address my points in an argument or admit that you are wrong. Is it really that hard?

[LookitsPuck]

Or, instead of going into a completely different thread, making stabs, deriding the topic, you could pm to let me know to respond. But no. That makes too much sense.