Cease vs everyone else

[wildbillhiccup]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t disagree with anything you are saying but that division blows, so that’s the one thing they have going for them.

I think that’s part of the thought process.

 

Yes it's a weak division, but do a side by side roster comparison of every other team in that division and tell me how any sane person could think they could contend in the next year or two. I mean it's like straight jacket padded room crazy talk. 

[24fps]

59 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Could be that he's just in over his head. Who knows. I'm just speaking to what appears to be the reality of the situation. I don't see how this team can possibly contend for at least the next two years. Eloy can't stay healthy, Moncada's a failed prospect at this point and Vaughn looks like he's barely a 20 HR guy. The only player with any semblance of upside on their roster is Robert. They also have a horrific starting rotation and bottom of the league type defense. The White Sox fans are in for some lean years with or without Cease. 

I agree with your general take on the White Sox's near-term future but it's still way too early to make the call on whether Getz is in over he head.  If Cease is still on the team come Opening Day, I'll definitely reconsider though.  Of course if Reinsdorf is the problem then there's only so much Getz can do as we know all too well from the Peter Angelos years.

[SoxFan3344]

3 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Yes it's a weak division, but do a side by side roster comparison of every other team in that division and tell me how any sane person could think they could contend in the next year or two. I mean it's like straight jacket padded room crazy talk. 

I’m not gonna sit here and act like the Sox are gonna win the division but as a Sox fan there is no team in the ALC that strikes me as a clear favorite. AGAIN this isn’t me saying the Sox are gonna shock everyone and win the division but I am saying this division sucks. If the Twins can stay healthy, which is a big if, they’d probably be the favorites but their pitching IMO stinks, the Tigers have some pieces but don’t see it coming together yet, the Guardians are just annoying, and the Royals have Bobby Witt. If you told me the a 75 win Kansas City Royals team won the ALC next year I wouldn’t be surprised. The division is just that bad and it’s even more depressing watching ALC baseball knowing none of them have a chance come playoff time

Edited January 18 by SoxFan3344

[sportsfan8703]

8 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Your obsession with me needs to end.  I’m a happily married man…and I like chicks.

 

You do like Duke though…

[sportsfan8703]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Apparently Getz said something to the effect of wanting to contend quickly And not have some long drawn out rebuild.

That would be my pushback to this.

And there is the problem. They should’ve let the previous GM finish the firesale/sell off. Also, they play in the AL Central, which is a pretty weak division. 

Regardless of what you think of the returns, we let DD finish the firesale off. Only Bundy, Cobb, and Cashner were left over. Getz still has a roster with a pretty decent pay roll, and some contracts that are tough to trade. 

If the CWS stay healthy, and have a few bounceback seasons, they could be within 5-7 GB in the AL Central around deadline time. So all of that means that Getz doesn’t have to give Cease away just to complete the firesale. 

At this point, I hope the rest of our offseason isn’t Cease or nothing. I hope we can sure up the bullpen if Wells is in the rotation. David Robertson would be at the top of my “realistic” list along with Ottavino and Brasier. 

[wildbillhiccup]

7 hours ago, SoxFan3344 said:

I’m not gonna sit here and act like the Sox are gonna win the division but as a Sox fan there is no team in the ALC that strikes me as a clear favorite. AGAIN this isn’t me saying the Sox are gonna shock everyone and win the division but I am saying this division sucks. If the Twins can stay healthy, which is a big if, they’d probably be the favorites but their pitching IMO stinks, the Tigers have some pieces but don’t see it coming together yet, the Guardians are just annoying, and the Royals have Bobby Witt. If you told me the a 75 win Kansas City Royals team won the ALC next year I wouldn’t be surprised. The division is just that bad and it’s even more depressing watching ALC baseball knowing none of them have a chance come playoff time

The difference is the White Sox have terrible starting pitching (which drops to a puke emoji if they trade Cease) and terrible defense. And their offense is significantly worse than it was last season with Burger and Anderson no longer on the team. And this is a team that could only muster 61 wins even with those players last season. I'm not sure how you can talk yourself into thinking they realistically have any shot of contending. 

The Twins have the best ofense in the divsion and respectable enough pitching if they can add another starter, the Guardians probably have the best pitching staff and bullpen in the division, the Tigers are a young up and coming team, and even the Royals made offseason moves (for a change) to improve their team. Every single one of those teams, except  the Royals, is significantly better on paper than the White Sox. And there's no minor league help on the immediate horizon (i.e., the calvary isn't coming). 

Look, I know it's hard to come to terms with your team sucking for a few years (we've been there), but trying to use a band-aid to stop a severed artery from bleeding doesn't work. The White Sox need to trade players like Cease, Jimenez and possibly even Robert, stock the farm system, and hit the reset button. Otherwise they're going to be stuck in non-contention purgatory for the next ten years. 

[wildbillhiccup]

10 hours ago, 24fps said:

I agree with your general take on the White Sox's near-term future but it's still way too early to make the call on whether Getz is in over he head.  If Cease is still on the team come Opening Day, I'll definitely reconsider though.  Of course if Reinsdorf is the problem then there's only so much Getz can do as we know all too well from the Peter Angelos years.

You make a good point and it's hard to imagine that Reinsdorf won't meddle to some extent based on his past track record, but we'll have to see how it plays out.  And I took a quick peek at the White Sox roster again this morning. I'm not even sure they're better than teams like the A's, Royals, and Rockies. If you remove Cease from their starting rotation then I think they arguably have the worst pitching staff (SPs and RPs) in all of baseball. This is a team in desperate need of a full rebuild and the sooner Getz, Reinsdorf or whoever realizes that the better off they'll be (in the long term). 

[wildbillhiccup]

6 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

And there is the problem. They should’ve let the previous GM finish the firesale/sell off. Also, they play in the AL Central, which is a pretty weak division. 

Regardless of what you think of the returns, we let DD finish the firesale off. Only Bundy, Cobb, and Cashner were left over. Getz still has a roster with a pretty decent pay roll, and some contracts that are tough to trade. 

If the CWS stay healthy, and have a few bounceback seasons, they could be within 5-7 GB in the AL Central around deadline time. So all of that means that Getz doesn’t have to give Cease away just to complete the firesale. 

At this point, I hope the rest of our offseason isn’t Cease or nothing. I hope we can sure up the bullpen if Wells is in the rotation. David Robertson would be at the top of my “realistic” list along with Ottavino and Brasier. 

Bounce back seasons from who? Aside from Cease there's not a sliver of upside on their entire roster AND they don't have Burge, Anderson or 1/2 their bullpen this season becuase they traded them all away. The only thing the White Sox are going to be contending for is the worst record in MLB this season. 

[RZNJ]

20 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

The difference is the White Sox have terrible starting pitching (which drops to a puke emoji if they trade Cease) and terrible defense. And their offense is significantly worse than it was last season with Burger and Anderson no longer on the team. And this is a team that could only muster 61 wins even with those players last season. I'm not sure how you can talk yourself into thinking they realistically have any shot of contending. 

The Twins have the best ofense in the divsion and respectable enough pitching if they can add another starter, the Guardians probably have the best pitching staff and bullpen in the division, the Tigers are a young up and coming team, and even the Royals made offseason moves (for a change) to improve their team. Every single one of those teams, except  the Royals, is significantly better on paper than the White Sox. And there's no minor league help on the immediate horizon (i.e., the calvary isn't coming). 

Look, I know it's hard to come to terms with your team sucking for a few years (we've been there), but trying to use a band-aid to stop a severed artery from bleeding doesn't work. The White Sox need to trade players like Cease, Jimenez and possibly even Robert, stock the farm system, and hit the reset button. Otherwise they're going to be stuck in non-contention purgatory for the next ten years. 

Are you really arguing that the WS are going to miss Tim Anderson’s .582 OPS and -2 rwar?    They certainly didn’t upgrade much but they made small moves to improve their MI defense.   The thing is their offense still currently sucks and is totally reliant on Robert, Vaughn, and Jimenez and whatever comes back in a Cease trade.   They’re screwed either way.   No Cease trade and the offense is horrible, most likely.   The rotation is bad even with Cease.  Without him it’s a black hole.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

Are you really arguing that the WS are going to miss Tim Anderson’s .582 OPS and -2 rwar?    They certainly didn’t upgrade much but they made small moves to improve their MI defense.   The thing is their offense still currently sucks and is totally reliant on Robert, Vaughn, and Jimenez and whatever comes back in a Cease trade.   They’re screwed either way.   No Cease trade and the offense is horrible, most likely.   The rotation is bad even with Cease.  Without him it’s a black hole.

Tim Anderson was a very productive player for them (at least offensively) prior to last season. And he was dealing with some pretty nasty personal stuff for most of 2023 (albeit because of his own doing). I'm less convinced that he's completely washed at age 30 then I am that Paul DeJong (his replacement) will have a sub .200 batting average this season. We're really splitting hairs though. The bottom line is they have terrible all around team that is much more than one or two pieces away from contending. 

[sportsfan8703]

33 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Bounce back seasons from who? Aside from Cease there's not a sliver of upside on their entire roster AND they don't have Burge, Anderson or 1/2 their bullpen this season becuase they traded them all away. The only thing the White Sox are going to be contending for is the worst record in MLB this season. 

I’m so tired of talking White Sox baseball. We essentially did that 2000-2012 and then again from 2017-2022. That’s most of my adult life. They suck, but they just so happen not to be in the AL East. 

It’s like we’re gluttons for pain and misery. We don’t need to understand their whole organization just because they’ve demanded Holliday, Mayo, and Basallo for Cease. 

35 days till ST. Let’s get us a RH reliever like Robertson, or Brasier, and head to camp. 

[ThisIsBirdland]

This has been mentioned elsewhere but starting to see it everywhere. Could be another leverage play but it sounds like they're not budging. Best not to meet an unreasonable price if that's ultimately the case.

[Aglets]

So the logic is that if no one will meet their asking price for 2 full seasons of Cease........... maybe some team will meet it for 1.5 seasons of him?

I guess if one team is really desperate maybe.   I don't really see Elias going for that though.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Aglets said:

So the logic is that if no one will meet their asking price for 2 full seasons of Cease........... maybe some team will meet it for 1.5 seasons of him?

I guess if one team is really desperate maybe.   I don't really see Elias going for that though.

It's a big gamble that I wouldn't feel comfortable making.

If he rebounds to Cy Young form they could get a higher price.  If he doesn't the price goes down, and if he gets hurt they've screwed themselves.

[Aglets]

Yeah great point.  If he really improves it could pay off for them.  If he doesn't pitch well or gets hurt............they could lose everything.