Cease vs everyone else

[ThisIsBirdland]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

@Frobby predicted the trade wouldn’t happen until the last two weeks of January, IIRC.  Patience.  Lots of hot air in media reports.

Yeah, if the Os acquiring Cease is your preferred outcome, I think you have to be happy with what the market is currently communicating to Getz and where things currently stand. Could always change and they could keep him into the season but I think it’s shaping up for a late winter fold for Chicago. 

[orioles119]

29 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

With a cheap ass owner who is more concerned with stuffing his pockets than winning.

Way to make a name for yourself there.  

[owknows]

24 minutes ago, interloper said:

They won in spite of his cheapness. 

If only he'd doubled the payroll, they would likely have won 202.

[interloper]

Just now, owknows said:

If only he'd doubled the payroll, they would likely have won 202.

No but they might have won a playoff game or something. It's ok to have criticisms while still applauding the results. We are capable of doing both. 

[CaptainRedbeard]

Heyman’s article says the Orioles have considered all of the free agent SP “from Stroman on down” but only specifically says they’re eying Paxton. Definitely did not make it sound imminent.

Also said the market for Montgomery or Snell would have to collapse for them to be in.

[Hallas]

what kind of deals are Montgomery/Snell looking for?

 

I don't love Snell.  He walks too many guys.  I'd like Montgomery.  If they're looking for Rodon money then I'd probably walk away.  If it's like, Taijuan Walker money then I'd expect the O's to be in.

 

Though honestly, Cease makes too much sense even if we have to trade top guys.  We don't have a MLB position for all our top guys.

Edited January 12 by Hallas

[RZNJ]

Expressed interest means ZERO.

[OriolesMagic83]

34 minutes ago, interloper said:

They won in spite of his cheapness. 

Yeah those big acquisitions of Fuji and Flaherty really helped in the playoffs.

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

If I'm the WS I'm all, oh?  OK cool.  Good luck with getting your owner to write that check that will bring you back a guy as good as Cease.

Talk to you in 49 hours.

This is exactly right. Realistically, the Orioles cannot (simply cannot) do better than Cease whether in FA or via trade. The dude is only making $8 mil this year. For the folks on here who were comparing Cease to Kyle Gibson (LOL by the way) ... Kyle is making $13 mil with the Cards in 24. 

The O's have a surplus of talent that they are legitimately wasting. I love how Elias, Sig and company have rebuilt the system but good grief, they are prospect hoarders. Someone on here referenced a quote in a book or interview or something about how much trouble Sig has with parting with prospects. This off-season seems to support that idea because the only way that they can improve the rotation is to send away assets to do so and unless the WS are legitimately asking for Holliday and/or Basallo to headline a deal (and there has been nothing reported that supports that suggestion), some combo of the other top guys should get it done. I don't consider any of the remaining top 30 guys untouchable, though I think Mayo is closer to Holliday and Basallo than anyone else. I'm a big big fan of both Joey and Cowser but if those two kids plus fillers could get you Dylan Cease, who is at least as good as the O's current best 1 or 2 starter, I will drive Joey and Cowser to the airport myself. 

The WS know the O's aren't going to move prospects for a 5th starter retread but they also know that the O's can't do better than Dylan Cease. Perhaps their demands are in the Holliday, Basallo, Mayo neighborhood. Obviously they know that the O's aren't trading Holliday so we can cross that off of the list. The WS aren't stupid. Basallo is closely behind Holliday and I'd argue just as much untouchable. It would really sting to give up Mayo and I'd prefer that they do not go that route but acquiring an established ML starter, who misses bats, posts and eats innings, exposing him to their analytics, culture and giving him the benefit of an improved ballclub while pitching half of his games in Walltimore.. get out of here. A change of scenery on a better team could do wonders for him. It's worth the risk because the alternative is that the prospects who they are holding don't get a chance in 24 and will be at least a half year older before there's more urgency to move them, further reducing their value. The WS know all of this. 

[OriolesMagic83]

15 minutes ago, orioles119 said:

Way to make a name for yourself there.  

Sorry to offend a John Angelos apologist.

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, interloper said:

No but they might have won a playoff game or something. It's ok to have criticisms while still applauding the results. We are capable of doing both. 

But you fail to acknowledge that the owner's level of spending produced 101 wins.

And that teams like the Yankees that don't have "cheap ass owners" produced 82.

Maybe it isn't the level of spending that produced the difference.

Maybe development, wise personnel decisions, decent coaching, and team dynamics are as or more important.

And maybe the sustainable path for the team doesn't involve pissing away money on players no better than the ones you have.

Just a thought.

[Spy Fox]

7 minutes ago, owknows said:

But you fail to acknowledge that the owner's level of spending produced 101 wins.

And that teams like the Yankees that don't have "cheap ass owners" produced 82.

Maybe it isn't the level of spending that produced the difference.

Maybe development, wise personnel decisions, decent coaching, and team dynamics are as or more important.

And maybe the sustainable path for the team doesn't involve pissing away money on players no better than the ones you have.

Just a thought.

It's clear that you don't have to spend big money to succeed.

But it should also be clear that smart spending is something that can help a team succeed further, and if your team is refusing to spend, they are shutting themselves off from that possible benefit. 

[interloper]

16 minutes ago, owknows said:

But you fail to acknowledge that the owner's level of spending produced 101 wins.

And that teams like the Yankees that don't have "cheap ass owners" produced 82.

Maybe it isn't the level of spending that produced the difference.

Maybe development, wise personnel decisions, decent coaching, and team dynamics are as or more important.

And maybe the sustainable path for the team doesn't involve pissing away money on players no better than the ones you have.

Just a thought.

When did I advocate pissing away money?

If Angelos had approved, say, a competitive offer for Bassitt, we might not have needed to pull the weak trade for Flaherty. That would have been a reasonable, affordable deal to help the rotation over the next few years. 

The lack of budget also prevents Elias from trading for pieces who command more salary. Because of that salary, they would cost less in prospects. However,  that wasn't an option, so the only trades Elias was comfortable with were ones that were light on prospects, but ALSO light on inherited salary, thus making the acquired players less exciting (Irvin, Fuji, Flaherty). 

In no way have I ever suggested that money spent = wins. You're completely putting words in my mouth, which is your whole game on this board. I am suggesting that spending a reasonable amount of money would have increased the chances of playoff wins and made Elias' job a lot easier. 

I give credit to Angelos for hiring Elias and allowing the systematic rebuild of the organization, pumping money into analytics and international free agency, etc. As much as I don't like him, he deserves credit for that.

But he's fortunate that Elias has been as good at his job as he has. The fact that Elias has hit on so many waiver claims and draft picks is fantastic, but had he not, we would not have had the success we did. 

All I am suggesting is that spending reasonably can (emphasis on "can") decrease the margin for error. Of course, spending unreasonably can absolutely muck up all manner of things for a team like the Orioles. I have never suggested otherwise.

Edited January 12 by interloper

[Hallas]

One thing I'll say about the team is that the makeup of the team gives them a ton of plausible deniability with regard to being cheap.  If, instead of Gunnar/Adley/Jackson, we had 3 ace pitchers, there'd literally be no excuse for us to spend money on hitters.  Hitter contracts have far less risk due to injury, and hitter performance is much easier to project.

 

But with a group of elite position players and no pitchers, you can make a pretty compelling argument why you don't want to spend money given pitchers' general injury risk.

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's not even an upgrade over Gibson.  I'm not sure he's an upgrade over 2022 Lyles.

You're better than this.