Cease vs everyone else

[Guest]

Just now, owknows said:

The idea of trying to contend perpetually by not signing expensive free agents, and defacto trading away your arb year talent to reload WITHOUT tanking is a new strategy. Or so I am told by the other antagonist currently engaging me in the thread.

A. We tanked to get here

B. Tampa and Cleveland have been trying to do this, but they always have down years to reload and have never had real success

[banks703]

48 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Ortiz did well in AAA, if he can match that in the bigs he’s super valuable. They might as well not even called him up. He what? 1 start a week over a month. You can’t hold that against him!

I’m as big of a supporter of Jorge as we have on this board and I’d argue that I am also one of Joey’s biggest supporters so it gave me no joy to see Jorge struggle and the O’s seemingly refusal to give Joey a legitimate chance to contribute. 23 was a wasted year for Joey and now he is a year older. He should have replaced Jorge on the roster in 23. 

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, brooooksy said:

A. We tanked to get here

B. Tampa and Cleveland have been trying to do this, but they always have down years to reload and have never had real success

A. Yes. I know. I said that already.

B. No, they really haven't. Nor do they have the eye for talent that this organization seems to have.

[Roll Tide]

18 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Did you miss the part where @Tony-OH specifically said -  "I'm not saying it's (wins) a useful stats by itself and should be used to evaluate pitchers" - which is exactly what you were trying to do the other day to try and argue that Cease wasn't a better pitcher than Gibson. The difference between you calling me out and me calling you out is that I made an actual argument for why wins isn't a useful stat when evaluating a pitcher's ability whereas you just snitch tagged someone else in the hopes that they would fight your battle for you. Making outlandish comments with little or no data to back it up might fly when you use your alter ego on the White Sox message board, but the OH is the big leagues and the more outlandish your statement, the more you should expect to be called out. 

here’s your data coolie….

Fact …. The Orioles were 20-13 in Gibson’s starts. In 15 of them he hung around long enough to win and pile on innings to save our bullpen. And they lost 5 games after he departed. So it’s fair to say 5 of the 13 losses weren’t his fault. So of 33 starts he could be held responsible for exactly 8 losses. He sucked! 

I think that says a lot about his contribution that you devalued because it was centered on Wins. 

As of right now not resigning him was a blunder. I would’ve rather signed Gibson to the contract he got than waste $13 million on Kimbrel who the Phillies fans couldn’t wait to run out of town 
 

 

Edited January 13 by Roll Tide

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, owknows said:

 

B. No, they really haven't. Nor do they have the eye for talent that this organization seems to have.

Based on what do you think we have better talent evaluators than Tampa?

Fangraphs ranks farm systems on relative future dollar value. When we were #1 in 2022 we were at $390 million. Tampa the year prior was $667 million.

FWIW it would be pitiful to aspire to Tampa - they’ve won nothing and again, do not have a fanbase. The teams that have won the World Series draft well and spend - Texas, LA, Houston, Chicago

[Roll Tide]

21 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I’m as big of a supporter of Jorge as we have on this board and I’d argue that I am also one of Joey’s biggest supporters so it gave me no joy to see Jorge struggle and the O’s seemingly refusal to give Joey a legitimate chance to contribute. 23 was a wasted year for Joey and now he is a year older. He should have replaced Jorge on the roster in 23. 

I hear you …but they rushed Cowser and he performed poorly. Ortiz offense has drastically improved the las two years. His OPS jumped from .800 to .885. I think he would’ve struggled a couple year ago. With that said Mateo should’ve been released or traded and Ortiz put at SS everyday. As it stands now he starts the season 25 and they have no idea if his offense will play. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I hear you …but they rushed Cowser and he performed poorly. Ortiz offense has drastically improved the las two years. His OPS jumped from .800 to .885. I think he would’ve struggled a couple year ago. With that said Mateo should’ve been released or traded and Ortiz put at SS everyday. As it stands now he starts the season 25 and they have no idea if his offense will play. 

Rushed?

 

[wildbillhiccup]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I hear you …but they rushed Cowser and he performed poorly. Ortiz offense has drastically improved the las two years. His OPS jumped from .800 to .885. I think he would’ve struggled a couple year ago. With that said Mateo should’ve been released or traded and Ortiz put at SS everyday. As it stands now he starts the season 25 and they have no idea if his offense will play. 

Cowser wasn't rushed at all. The majority of folks on this message board were clamoring to have him promoted MONTHS before he actually was.  

[wildbillhiccup]

21 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

here’s your data coolie….

Fact …. The Orioles were 20-13 in Gibson’s starts. In 15 of them he hung around long enough to win and pile on innings to save our bullpen. And they lost 5 games after he departed. So it’s fair to say 5 of the 13 losses weren’t his fault. So of 33 starts he could be held responsible for exactly 8 losses. He sucked! 

I think that says a lot about his contribution that you devalued because it was centered on Wins. 

As of right now not resigning him was a blunder. I would’ve rather signed Gibson to the contract he got than waste $13 million on Kimbrel who the Phillies fans couldn’t wait to run out of town 
 

 

So your argument for Gibson being more valuable than Cease is that he pitched worse (than Cease) for more more innings? Ok, got it. Makes perfect sense.

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Cowser wasn't rushed at all. The majority of folks on this message board were clamoring to have him promoted MONTHS before he actually was.  

. Ok he performed admirably 

[emmett16]

39 minutes ago, brooooksy said:

A. We tanked to get here

B. Tampa and Cleveland have been trying to do this, but they always have down years to reload and have never had real success

Making playoffs 5 years in a row and the WS in One of those 5 is not “real success”? 

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

So your argument for Gibson being more valuable than Cease is that he pitched worse (than Cease) for more more innings? Ok, got it. Makes perfect sense.

No he contributed to 20 of the teams wins and left 5 others with the team winning or tied. But spin your nonsense anyway you want.

[emmett16]

35 minutes ago, owknows said:

A. Yes. I know. I said that already.

B. No, they really haven't. Nor do they have the eye for talent that this organization seems to have.

Tampa is one of the best, if not the best, at finding and developing talent.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Making playoffs 5 years in a row and the WS in One of those 5 is not “real success”? 

I thought we were trying to win the World Series here like the other teams I mentioned

[Three Run Homer]

6 hours ago, owknows said:

The quality of discussion has dropped a notch or two here it seems.

Yes.  It happened when you mocked me for my "outrage".