Discuss Cabrera Here

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

Walks haven't been the biggest problem for DCab this year...Not even close.

Homers, lack of missed bats and declining K rate are bigger factors.

Absolutely true. His fastball has been flat, a little slower and easier to crush. But do the walks not add to this problem?

[SilentJames]

7/8 walks -- 5

6/1 walks -- 4

5/15 walks -- 5

4/3 walks -- 4

Yes, he earned them. Come on, now. That's TOO MANY WALKS. You're a big-league pitcher. Again, I don't care how hard you throw. Really, I don't. Win games. That's what I want. That's what all of us want.

Look. I was a "Don't-give-up-on-DCab-guy" for a long, long time. I was mesmorized by his stuff, just like most of us. But I've seen the light, seen too many winning streaks get snapped with a furrowed D-Cab brow, and I hope the front office has, too (while other front offices haven't and give us more than we deserve).

I want us to win. Promise. In fact, I bet $50 on us tonight and am glad D-Cab won. That might say something about my absurd gambling habits, but I can't bet against the O's against the D-Rays, can I? Especially when they've been relatively hot and are a +133 dog?

I didn't realize that walks were being counted as runs.

Now I know you will crucify me but - if he is only allowing 3 runs or less in those games:

1) Is the team in a position to win?

2) Were any of those walk intentional?

3) Did they come in bunches? Or was it a walk in the first, one in the 4th 2 in the 7th?

4) Again, if only 3 runs score - and runs determine who wins - what does it matter?

If You are only giving up 3 runs in 7 you are giving your team more than enough of a chance to win.

[RVAbird]

I didn't realize that walks were being counted as runs.

Now I know you will crucify me but - if he is only allowing 3 runs or less in those games:

1) Is the team in a position to win?

2) Were any of those walk intentional?

3) Did they come in bunches? Or was it a walk in the first, one in the 4th 2 in the 7th?

4) Again, if only 3 runs score - and runs determine who wins - what does it matter?

If You are only giving up 3 runs in 7 you are giving your team more than enough of a chance to win.

You didn't hear? MLB changed the rules so that games are won by the team with the highest walk total. ERA has been replaced with Earned Walk Average, and any time a pitcher allows 4 walks or more he deserves to lose regardless of how many runs he allows.

These Cabrera threads are really raising the ridiculous level in some.

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

I didn't realize that walks were being counted as runs.

Now I know you will crucify me but - if he is only allowing 3 runs or less in those games:

1) Is the team in a position to win?

2) Were any of those walk intentional?

3) Did they come in bunches? Or was it a walk in the first, one in the 4th 2 in the 7th?

4) Again, if only 3 runs score - and runs determine who wins - what does it matter?

If You are only giving up 3 runs in 7 you are giving your team more than enough of a chance to win.

SJ,

I respect your opinion, man. And I'll agree that the runs are the bottom line. I guess all I'm saying is that the walks have seemingly NEVER improved, when that is the one area that is in complete control of the pitcher. Again, let me say that I really want Danny C to succeed, and if it happens with us, well hell, color me corrected and tickled pink. My only point is that I think we ought to ship him out while other clubs are still thinking like the majority here on this board and not thinking like me.

[RVAbird]

SJ,

I respect your opinion, man. And I'll agree that the runs are the bottom line. I guess all I'm saying is that the walks have seemingly NEVER improved, when that is the one area that is in complete control of the pitcher. Again, let me say that I really want Danny C to succeed, and if it happens with us, well hell, color me corrected and tickled pink. My only point is that I think we ought to ship him out while other clubs are still thinking like the majority here on this board and not thinking like me.

Walks are not in complete control of the pitcher. That's the kind of thinking that lead people to assume that OBP was a worthless stat and Batting Average was more reliable. That said, he certainly needs to cut down on the walks.

However, a pitcher can succeed despite a high walk rate if he can also maintain a high strikeout rate.

[RShack]

I certainly understand why people are frustrated with him. He's always had the promise of great stuff, but has never been able to consistently harness it.

However, there are 3 things I do not understand:

1. I gather that some people question his attitude and work ethic. This despite the fact that both his teammates and Mazzone think highly of him. Mazzone in particular was known in ATL for having very little patience with slackers, and there was a steady stream of P's in ATL who got sent out of town in a hurry. Evidently, Mazzone likes working with him. So, why oh why would anybody criticize DCab for his attitude and work ethic when the evidence is to the contrary?

2. It seems to be routine that somebody will blast him for folding, or failing under pressure, or losing heart, or getting rattled, or whatever terminology you might use. This seems bizarre to me. For all his obvious shortcomings, he has become quite remarkable at not folding. While I certainly don't like the fact that he gets himself into so many jams, I also see that he's usually quite stout when in the middle of a jam. This is *way* different than just a couple years ago, when he would indeed get rattled and fold. In comparison to how he used to be, he now seems almost rattle-proof. If he ever does get it together, a rough spot won't faze him because he's constantly pitching in rough spots. Two years ago, I used to think he was a boy in a big body out there on the mound; now, he handles adverse situations like a man. So, I don't understand all the noise about him folding. Everything I see tells me it's simply not true. He loses the strike zone, but that's not the same thing as losing composure.

3. I don't understand pitching well enough to be able to make sense of his stuff getting flat. He's walking significantly fewer batters per inning, but is this at the cost of throwing slower? Is he throwing slower? If he is, might that somehow cause his pitches to lose their magic? Or could he be hurt? Or has something else changed? I have no idea. I don't know if Mazzone has an idea. All this would be a lot less frustrating for me if somebody could only explain what's what about his stuff. AFAIK, if there is anybody who can explain this, they won't tell us; and the people who are at liberty to freely offer opinions seem unable to provide an adequate explanation.

Given all this, he's frustrating to me in the way that a riddle or puzzle is frustrating. He's not frustrating in the way that people who have big character flaws are frustrating. Those people I want to just forget about, I don't want them messing with my world. DCab is frustrating in a way that makes me really want to see what happens.

So, let's review: His walks/inning are way better, he's learning how to give up runs one-at-a-time, and he's becoming an innings-eater. And he's doing this without his good stuff, when people are getting their bat on his pitches. Gee, I wonder what could happen if he could become a 1-run-at-a-time innings-eater who get's his stuff back?

But will he? Beats me. A year or two ago, if somebody had told me that he would become an innings-eater this year, I would have been thinking Cy Young. Shows how much I know.

[TyCobb]

Walks are not in complete control of the pitcher. That's the kind of thinking that lead people to assume that OBP was a worthless stat and Batting Average was more reliable. That said, he certainly needs to cut down on the walks.

However, a pitcher can succeed despite a high walk rate if he can also maintain a high strikeout rate.

Pretty sure Walks are 98% because of Pitchers and 2% because of bad Umps.

Hitters work the count, which leads to walks, but they walk because the Pitcher doesn't throw a strike.

[Mark Carver]

SJ,

I respect your opinion, man. And I'll agree that the runs are the bottom line. I guess all I'm saying is that the walks have seemingly NEVER improved, when that is the one area that is in complete control of the pitcher. Again, let me say that I really want Danny C to succeed, and if it happens with us, well hell, color me corrected and tickled pink. My only point is that I think we ought to ship him out while other clubs are still thinking like the majority here on this board and not thinking like me.

Should the Mariners have shipped Randy Johnson out with 96, 120, 152 and 144 walk totals his 1st 4 seasons? I'm not saying Cabrera will turn into another Johnson, but he is the least of the teams problems. If he would net a young position player, I'd at least think about it, because that is where the teams problems lie.

[RVAbird]

Pretty sure Walks are 98% because of Pitchers and 2% because of bad Umps.

Hitters work the count, which leads to walks, but they walk because the Pitcher doesn't throw a strike.

Looking at a pitcher's walk rates over a large sample size tends to tell you something about his control habits, but walks are certainly not anywhere near 98% in the pitcher's conrol. Wouldn't you agree that some hitters are much better at drawing a walk than others by working the count and being selective? This would suggest that drawing a walk is a hitting skill, and that walks are not completely in the control of the pitcher.

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

Walks are not in complete control of the pitcher. That's the kind of thinking that lead people to assume that OBP was a worthless stat and Batting Average was more reliable. That said, he certainly needs to cut down on the walks.

However, a pitcher can succeed despite a high walk rate if he can also maintain a high strikeout rate.

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

[Sports Guy]

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

His CEILING is still a top of the rotation guy.

Whether he can reach that or not is another question.

[weams]

Don Stanhouse? I don't know if frustrating's the word but maybe "pitcher who will cause you more anxiety than any other" comes to mind.

Ben McDonald.

[El Gordo]

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

It's pointless to traade DCab for another pitcher. If you trade him it's for a bat.

[Ruzious]

This thread will live in infamy.

[Flosman]

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

Obviously his ceiling is an Ace. The problem is the likelihood of him reaching that ceiling is not high and it gets lower each month. He as the tools but he just can't get it all together, yet.