Orioles 2024 Best defensive combination

[emmett16]

5 minutes ago, RVAOsFan said:

Great question to a great thread.  This was the first question that popped into my head when I looked at the lineup.  If the answer is they are very close it kind of makes me wonder if Westburg is the one we should be including in trade proposals.  Don't get me wrong I really liked what I saw from Westburg last year, but are we not putting enough value into Ortiz defense? So many options with the infield depth, good problem to have. 

I think Westburg is the guy (we are willing to trade) that will bring back a big fish.  Would be very painful.  

[Tony-OH]

Just now, RVAOsFan said:

@Tony-OH who do you think has more trade value Westburg or Ortiz? Who would you rather keep, who would you rather trade?

That's a good question. Ortiz is the better defender by far, even though Westburg was solid average at 2B and 3B last year, I'd take him defensively at either and Ortiz is the best defensive SS in the org. Now, Westburg has the more explosive bat and has the better plate discipline. He has more power for sure and hits less ground balls.

If the Orioles believe Holliday will be able to handle SS defensively at the major league level (they have more data than I do) then there is less risk in trading him. If they think Holliday will have to move to 2B or 3B, then I think they'd prefer to move Westburg vs Ortiz. 

To me it's very close but because of Ortiz's ability to play a plus SS and plus, plus 2B, I'd probably prefer to keep him over Westburg.

[Spy Fox]

@Tony-OH it's not explicitly stated in the OP, but I assume you're talking about best defensive lineup, among guys we want in the lineup? 

If it was just purely best glove, would McKenna (or Hilliard I guess) be above Hays/Cowser?

And how do you think Ortiz/Gunnar compare to Mateo defensively at SS? 

[Tony-OH]

2 minutes ago, Spy Fox said:

@Tony-OH it's not explicitly stated in the OP, but I assume you're talking about best defensive lineup, among guys we want in the lineup? 

If it was just purely best glove, would McKenna (or Hilliard I guess) be above Hays/Cowser?

And how do you think Ortiz/Gunnar compare to Mateo defensively at SS? 

No, I stated it was based on guys on the 40-man and defense only. I would not want McKenna over Hays in LF or Cowser in RF. McKenna is ok defensively, but not a stud out there. And we'll always have that one handed drop. 

Ortiz is better defensively than both Mateo and Henderson.

[RVAOsFan]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

That's a good question. Ortiz is the better defender by far, even though Westburg was solid average at 2B and 3B last year, I'd take him defensively at either and Ortiz is the best defensive SS in the org. Now, Westburg has the more explosive bat and has the better plate discipline. He has more power for sure and hits less ground balls.

If the Orioles believe Holliday will be able to handle SS defensively at the major league level (they have more data than I do) then there is less risk in trading him. If they think Holliday will have to move to 2B or 3B, then I think they'd prefer to move Westburg vs Ortiz. 

To me it's very close but because of Ortiz's ability to play a plus SS and plus, plus 2B, I'd probably prefer to keep him over Westburg.

Interesting, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  Like I said, I really liked what I saw from Westburg last year but the thought of trading away a plus defender at a premium position like SS sure does sting.

[Spy Fox]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

No, I stated it was based on guys on the 40-man and defense only. I would not want McKenna over Hays in LF or Cowser in RF. McKenna is ok defensively, but not a stud out there. And we'll always have that one handed drop. 

Ortiz is better defensively than both Mateo and Henderson.

Ah, I saw the bat comment, but the lack of Mateo/McKenna made me wonder if you meant, bat strength isn't being considered among guys who you might want starting (the O'Hearn, Kjerstad type). Reading between the lines too much. 

That's encouraging about Ortiz and Cowser that they would be ahead of Mateo and McKenna on defense alone. 

[sportsfan8703]

I like this thread.  I have Gunnar over Ortiz as the better defensive SS. I have Urias over Ortiz at 3B. Ortiz would only be the best defender at 2B. That is not taking anything away from Ortiz. I like Ortiz. I think he can be Urias+. 

I know this is an all defense discussion, but Mayo is now slouch. He’s big and has a cannon. At 3B and 30HR power, that’s nothing to sneeze at. We can sacrifice a little range. 

[forphase1]

2 minutes ago, Spy Fox said:

Ah, I saw the bat comment, but the lack of Mateo/McKenna made me wonder if you meant, bat strength isn't being considered among guys who you might want starting (the O'Hearn, Kjerstad type). Reading between the lines too much. 

That's encouraging about Ortiz and Cowser that they would be ahead of Mateo and McKenna on defense alone. 

Defensively, both McKenna and Mateo are a bit over rated around here, at least in comparisons to who they replace.  Mateo IS a good SS, but Henderson and Ortiz are both better.  Another reason I don't see a ton of logic with carrying Mateo on the roster over Ortiz.  But I digress.    McKenna is not a butcher in the outfield, his stupid mistakes notwithstanding, but nor is he a great defender either.  

[Pickles]

46 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

We've been discussing in multiple threads who fits where best defensively. So without taking the bats into consideration, and only going off the current 40-man roster, this is the best defensive team the Orioles can put on the field to start 2024. Just a note, a player can only be in one position so in the case of Joey Ortiz where he would be the best shortstop and second baseman, he can only be one.

1B: Ryan Mountcastle 
2B: Jordan Westburg
SS: Joey Ortiz
3B: Gunnar Henderson
C : Adley Rutschman
LF: Austin Hays
CF: Cedric Mullins
RF: Colton Cowser

Now there is going to be some argument that Gunnar Henderson is the best defensive shortstop, and by arm strength alone, they would be right, but I've seen enough quickness, smoothness and consistency from Joey Ortiz that he would be preference at SS, especially since Henderson is by and far the best defensive 3B.

 

 

From what I saw last year, Santander is a better RF than Cowser at the present moment.

[forphase1]

8 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I like this thread.  I have Gunnar over Ortiz as the better defensive SS. I have Urias over Ortiz at 3B. Ortiz would only be the best defender at 2B. That is not taking anything away from Ortiz. I like Ortiz. I think he can be Urias+. 

I know this is an all defense discussion, but Mayo is now slouch. He’s big and has a cannon. At 3B and 30HR power, that’s nothing to sneeze at. We can sacrifice a little range. 

You are really underrating Ortiz.  He's the best defensive SS in the organization, and likely one of the top 3B, and quite better than Urias, gold glove or not.  I'd love to see us give both Urias and Mateo the boot and give their at bats to Ortiz, and when/if Holiday is up put Ortiz in the super sub position, playing whenever Henderson/Holiday/Westburg needs a rest.  

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I like this thread.  I have Gunnar over Ortiz as the better defensive SS. I have Urias over Ortiz at 3B. Ortiz would only be the best defender at 2B. That is not taking anything away from Ortiz. I like Ortiz. I think he can be Urias+. 

I know this is an all defense discussion, but Mayo is now slouch. He’s big and has a cannon. At 3B and 30HR power, that’s nothing to sneeze at. We can sacrifice a little range. 

Urias was -10 OAA and -7 FRV at 3B last year. He has a well below average arm for the left side of the infield. 

[Tony-OH]

22 minutes ago, Pickles said:

From what I saw last year, Santander is a better RF than Cowser at the present moment.

Santander may have improved last year from his previous two years, but he was still -1 OOA and -3 FRV. 

I know everyone wants to remember a few plays by Cowser in the outfield and want to say he's a bad defender, but I've seen him a ton in the minors and he's going to be a very good corner outfielder and adequate CF fill in.

[Frobby]

If all I cared about was defense, I might put Mateo at SS and move Ortiz to 2B.  Mateo was the Fielding Bible winner in 2022, deservedly so, and though he clearly slipped last year, I feel that was due to not playing every day, not because he lost any ability.  And even if Gunnar or Ortiz might be a slightly better SS as of 2024, this alignment gets all three on the field at the same time at positions where they can be plus or plus plus.  

By the way, as evidence of my theory on Mateo, through 72 games he was +6 Rdrs and +4.6 UZR.   The rest of the season, when he started playing more sporadically, he was -4 Rdrs and -1.1 UZR.

Needless to say, this is all academic, since Mateo’s offense is so bad and unreliable.  But the exercise was solely about defense.  
 

[Pickles]

27 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Santander may have improved last year from his previous two years, but he was still -1 OOA and -3 FRV. 

I know everyone wants to remember a few plays by Cowser in the outfield and want to say he's a bad defender, but I've seen him a ton in the minors and he's going to be a very good corner outfielder and adequate CF fill in.

Santander is physically limited out there, especially in regards to speed, but he takes good routes, catches everything, and has a solid arm.

Cowser is obviously a lot more tooled up, but I was disappointed in his routes and his throwing arm- not the strength, that was better than I thought tbh, but his mechanics in receiving and releasing the ball led to several bad/inaccurate throws.

I know you've probably seen him more than any of us on this board, and I respect your opinion.  I have little doubt in the long run it will turn out to be correct.  But, as of last year, I felt more comfortable with Santander in RF than Cowser, and I'd like to see improvement from Cowser before I changed my opinion.

[RZNJ]

1B Mountcastle

2B Westburg

SS Ortiz

3B Henderson

C Rutschman

LF Hays

CF Mullins

RF McKenna