Elias' mental shift

[CaptainRedbeard]

It would be a much bigger mental shift if they think Hall still has a good chance to be a SP. Otherwise, it’s a continuation of “trade only blocked prospects and RPs.” But the stakes are much higher - trading a much better blocked prospect in Ortiz and getting an elite player with only one year of control.

I do think trading the comp pick is a notable shift, though. Elias’ comments about that were very interesting, that those are easier to deal because all teams value them the same way. So even though Elias obviously values them (and has traded for them in the past), perhaps it’s an indication that there aren’t other prospects in the same value range that MIL wanted that Elias didn’t value more strongly. 

[drjohnnyfever1]

I don't see it as a mental/philosophical shift.  It is, no doubt, the next phase of a long-term model.  Perhaps it happened a bit sooner than suspected, but that's only because of Elias and Company's aptitude and success at building a contender.

Edited February 4 by drjohnnyfever1

[Aristotelian]

The only thing that changed was resolution of the ownership question, Imo. 

[ThisIsBirdland]

I really find it odd that we're not taking Elias at his word on this. It's just the same natural progression of a rebuild we've watched play out each year since Elias has been here. No mentality shift, just taking the next logical step forward.

Tying this into whether the move occurred because of the sale or not, I think that's pretty far fetched. We were legitimately pursuing these moves for months, I believe regardless of the status of the sale. If Angelos wasn't going to sign off on an additional $15m for Corbin Burnes, I don't think he would have signed off on tendering contracts for all 17 of their arbitration eligible players, or offering someone like Givens $6.5m last offseason. My guess is Angelos has always provided a range (lower than we believe it should be given their profits) but that the longevity of the deals is far more critical than the one year cost.

[wildcard]

36 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

I really find it odd that we're not taking Elias at his word on this. It's just the same natural progression of a rebuild we've watched play out each year since Elias has been here. No mentality shift, just taking the next logical step forward.

Tying this into whether the move occurred because of the sale or not, I think that's pretty far fetched. We were legitimately pursuing these moves for months, I believe regardless of the status of the sale. If Angelos wasn't going to sign off on an additional $15m for Corbin Burnes, I don't think he would have signed off on tendering contracts for all 17 of their arbitration eligible players, or offering someone like Givens $6.5m last offseason. My guess is Angelos has always provided a range (lower than we believe it should be given their profits) but that the longevity of the deals is far more critical than the one year cost.

Elias is framing the question of his direction differently than I talked about in the OP.  He is saying he has not changed because he has always been building toward the World Series.  I have not argument with that.  

Some fans are saying it not a shift, its just the next phase.    That is semantics.   That recognizes that there there as been some change.   The shift is that he was willing to trade young talented players for a veteran player.  Whether you want to call that a mental shift or  the next phase of a plan doesn't really matter.   

Its different from what Elias has done before which is all I am pointing out.

As far as the ownership change, when do you think Elias know it was possible?   I believe reports that Rubenstien was interested have been around of a while.  Probably before the talks with the Brewers started.   

Did Elias know the sale would happen back in November?  Probably not but  I doubt is was completely unaware.    That the sale happen may have been an element of the Burnes trade being completely.

Edited February 4 by wildcard

[drjohnnyfever1]

19 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias is framing the question of his direction differently than I talked about in the OP.  He is saying he has not changed because he has always been building toward the World Series.  I have not argument with that.  

Some fans are saying it not a shift, its just the next phase.    That is semantics.   That recognizes that there there as been some change.   The shift is that he was willing to trade young talented players for a veteran player.  Whether you want to call that a mental shift or  the next phase of a plan doesn't really matter.   

Its different from what Elias has done before which is all I am pointing out.

As far as the ownership change, when do you think Elias know it was possible?   I believe reports that Rubenstien was interested have been around of a while.  Probably before the talks with the Brewers started.   

Did Elias know the sale would happen back in November?  Probably not but  I doubt is was completely unaware.    That the sale happen may have been an element of the Burnes trade being completely.

It's different than what he's done before only because of the progression of the "plan," not because it's a shift to a new plan, as was suggested in the OP, at least the way I read it.  Following a plan and progressing from point to point along that plan's path is not a shift.  Shift indicates a change to some different method or plan.  Progression would be a truer characterization.

[Bemorewins]

If Elias indeed changed I’m happy about it because it got us a true #1 (one of the best pitchers in the sport). But beyond Elias’ proposed “change” (which is up for speculation) the REAL TANGIBLE CHANGE is the change in ownership coming. The new control person as owner has already stated as a goal the desire to bring a World Series championship back to Baltimore, something I do not ever recall John Angelos saying and certainly not prioritizing.

My personal hope is that this change produces meaningful moves (like the Burnes trade) intended to win championships and that the stated goal from Angelos of being like the Rays, Reds, Guardians, etc is no more. I never agreed with setting as a model something that does not include championship aspirations, especially for a franchise who has not won in 40 years.

The best thing about this move and whether or not something “changed” is that we finally have real expectations for the franchise. No more tripping over a bar set so low (constant real build/hoping to get lucky maybe to contend, “but as long as we have a winning record”). Now, we are after the big prize and hopefully this is the start of something special.

[Aristotelian]

50 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias is framing the question of his direction differently than I talked about in the OP.  He is saying he has not changed because he has always been building toward the World Series.  I have not argument with that.  

Some fans are saying it not a shift, its just the next phase.    That is semantics.   That recognizes that there there as been some change.   The shift is that he was willing to trade young talented players for a veteran player.  Whether you want to call that a mental shift or  the next phase of a plan doesn't really matter.   

Its different from what Elias has done before which is all I am pointing out.

As far as the ownership change, when do you think Elias know it was possible?   I believe reports that Rubenstien was interested have been around of a while.  Probably before the talks with the Brewers started.   

Did Elias know the sale would happen back in November?  Probably not but  I doubt is was completely unaware.    That the sale happen may have been an element of the Burnes trade being completely.

Yes, the Burnes trade is a different kind of move than Elias has made before. That is stating the obvious but if that is your point, sure.

[wildbillhiccup]

51 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Some fans are saying it not a shift, its just the next phase.    That is semantics.   That recognizes that there there as been some change.   The shift is that he was willing to trade young talented players for a veteran player.  Whether you want to call that a mental shift or  the next phase of a plan doesn't really matter.   

A mental shift in philosophy and the natural progression of of the same plan aren't the same thing at all. It's ok to be wrong. No one is keeping a tally. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

A mental shift in philosophy and the natural progression of of the same plan aren't the same thing at all. It's ok to be wrong. No one is keeping a tally. 

Sometimes it feels like someone is.

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

 

Some fans are saying it not a shift, it’s just the next phase.    That is semantics.   That recognizes that there there as been some change.   The shift is that he was willing to trade young talented players for a veteran player.  

It’s been obvious all winter that he was trying to do this, and it was the obvious thing to do if the team wasn’t willing to pony up for a highly regarded FA pitcher.  I mean, we have a 300 page thread devoted to a possible trade for Cease.  That always was going to involve trading prospects.  

[interloper]

If anything, I think any supposed shift occurred the year prior with "liftoff", etc. Elias basically said then that the rebuild phase is over. 

So not so much a shift in mentality as a shift into the next phase of the overall plan.

[Spy Fox]

I do think that we are in a new "phase" of strategy which will last for several years while trying to maximize World Series chances with this core. 

The next transition depends on the new ownership group's spending habits. Do they actually up payroll significantly and we see larger $ FA signings and extensions? Or, do we stay in a more modest payroll zone when the core gets expensive, and we start doing Tampa style stay-in-cheap-contention-forever things like trading Matt Garza for Chris Archer and then trading Chris Archer for Tyler Glasnow and then trading Tyler Glasnow for Ryan Pepiot. 

[wildcard]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

It’s been obvious all winter that he was trying to do this, and it was the obvious thing to do if the team wasn’t willing to pony up for a highly regarded FA pitcher.  I mean, we have a 300 page thread devoted to a possible trade for Cease.  That always was going to involve trading prospects.  

Which would have been different from anything he have done before this off season.

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Which would have been different from anything he have done before this off season.

You get the Seinfeld award.  You started a thread about nothing and got 5 pages of people arguing with you about it.