755

[beaner]

Ray Lewis went to trial and was allowed to make a deal. I severely doubt he would have been allowed to do that if there was any evidence against him other then his lies to the police.

Bonds, however, has apparently told a grand jury he used some form of performance-enhancing drug ("unknowingly"), and has a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him, from his physical changes to a friend serving jail time for contempt of court instead of testifying about what Bonds may or may not have done.

I think he is an amazing player, and I will applaud his home run when he gets it. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that unless evidence appears to the contrary, I believe he used performance-enhancing substances to cheat. He has not earned any benefit of any doubt.

The achievement is impressive, but tainted.

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

And you're last statement is absolutely the truth, but i choose to enjoy it, while others do not. No right or wrong obviously, just a difference of opinion.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Life is too short for all of this angst...Enjoy the moment, you won't be able to escape it, so you might as well.

Yeah. And we're all going to die eventually anyway, so I'm not going to work tomorrow.

The reason an accomplishment like this IS an accomplishment is because it is supposed to be 1) essentially impossible to achieve unless you have an amazing ability to do something well and do it for a long time, and 2) achieved through fair and honest means.

If I started playing baseball tomorrow, and was hitting all kinds of home runs, but it was because pitchers decided they would rather have me as the record-holder and so were constantly giving me the easiest possible pitches, would it be as much of an accomplishment if I eventually passed Bonds?

He likely took something that was at least against the laws of the United States if not banned by baseball at the time, and was designed to give him that much more of an advantage over his peers. That is NOT fair and honest.

It's worse then when Brett Favre took a dive to give Michael Strahan the NFL single-season sack record.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

Like I said, Lewis went to trial, and was found guilty of the crime he did commit.

Bonds has yet to do so, but has more evidence against him as well.

[YardBirds13]

I've learned that there is no arguing this point. I really can't even begin to imagine how people can't see Bonds as the champ, but whatever. This is the kind of argument that nobody ever changes their mind on.

[geschinger]

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

And you're last statement is absolutely the truth, but i choose to enjoy it, while others do not. No right or wrong obviously, just a difference of opinion.

The one difference I see between the two is that Lewis' situation was strictly off the field. It had no effect on the outcome on the field. But I agree - I also choose to enjoy it and have no problem whatsoever w/anyone who chooses to attack Bonds. He's certainly earned it - on both sides of the equation.

[beaner]

I've learned that there is no arguing this point. I really can't even begin to imagine how people can't see Bonds as the champ, but whatever. This is the kind of argument that nobody ever changes their mind on.

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

[YardBirds13]

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

I think as much as alot of people hate A-Rod, for many reasons, he will be celebrated because people will just be rooting against Bonds. (Which is ridiculous, because who knows what A-Rod was taking all thos years, but I digress)

Hopefully he is breaking the record in a uniform that isn't pinstripes. For two reasons:

a) it's not like the Yanks need any more coverage on ESPN, and imagine a Yankee going for the all-time record

b) who knows, I might not be able to celebrate the reality of it because my mind will be tainted by those damn pinstripes;)

[geschinger]

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere near the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

[YardBirds13]

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere neer the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

But I think that's the whole point. Bonds played during an era where this stuff was rampant! We are never gonna know who used and who didn't. Some have said it could have been as many as 80 percent of players used some sort of PED's. 80!! It happened during this era. Bonds was just a lot better with PED's than everyone else during this era.

Old People Era: Aaron was the best

Steroids Era: Bonds is the best

Thats how I look at it.

[beaner]

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere neer the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

[geschinger]

But I think that's the whole point. Bonds played during an era where this stuff was rampant! We are never gonna know who used and who didn't. Some have said it could have been as many as 80 percent of players used some sort of PED's. 80!! It happened during this era. Bonds was just a lot better with PED's than everyone else during this era.

Old People Era: Aaron was the best

Steroids Era: Bonds is the best

Thats how I look at it.

There have also been some that said it was much lower. I'm uncomfortable painting everyone as a cheater w/o at least some evidence to back it up. It's completely unfair to those who never used. Whether that is 20% or 50% or whatever % of players that didn't use it is completely unfair to assume that the are guilty.

[YardBirds13]

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

Bingo. If a report came out today that Brian Roberts used some PED's, how would his perception around here change? I can tell you with 100 percent certaintly that I would not think less of him at all. Same goes for Tejada, Gibbons, Mora, et al.

[YardBirds13]

There have also been some that said it was much lower. I'm uncomfortable painting everyone as a cheater w/o at least some evidence to back it up. It's completely unfair to those who never used. Whether that is 20% or 50% or whatever % of players that didn't use it is completely unfair to assume that the are guilty.

Exactly. We will never know. Which is why I (and many others) are considering that PED's, from the late 80's to early 2000's, were simply a part of the game. It wasn't good, and I'm glad that they are trying to clean it up, but it happened, and Bonds was the best of the guys who played during that era.

[beaner]

I think as much as alot of people hate A-Rod, for many reasons, he will be celebrated because people will just be rooting against Bonds. (Which is ridiculous, because who knows what A-Rod was taking all thos years, but I digress)

Hopefully he is breaking the record in a uniform that isn't pinstripes. For two reasons:

a) it's not like the Yanks need any more coverage on ESPN, and imagine a Yankee going for the all-time record

b) who knows, I might not be able to celebrate the reality of it because my mind will be tainted by those damn pinstripes;)

Not the ESPN thing, no, please stop...Find any tape of Baseball tonight before 1994, and the Yankees were rarely mentioned...They get coverage because they deserve it, bottom line. The Yankees are great, that's why they're on ESPN. If we were great, we'd be on ESPN a lot too, I promise. Like we always talk about during Basketball season, ESPN doesn't love Duke and Carolina, they're just always good, and the casual fan wants to see great teams, either to root for or against them. If people didn't care, the coverage would be less.

[YardBirds13]

Not the ESPN thing, no, please stop...Find any tape of Baseball tonight before 1994, and the Yankees were rarely mentioned...They get coverage because they deserve it, bottom line. The Yankees are great, that's why they're on ESPN. If we were great, we'd be on ESPN a lot too, I promise. Like we always talk about during Basketball season, ESPN doesn't love Duke and Carolina, they're just always good, and the casual fan wants to see great teams, either to root for or against them. If people didn't care, the coverage would be less.

No, no, no, Duke and Carolina DO get more coverage, I mean come on, where are all the UVa highlights????

I'm not saying the Yanks don't deserve the coverage, I know they do. I'm just saying I don't want ANOTHER reason for them to be talked about.