Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[emmett16]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

I don’t have any. I’m going off of the 25+ games that I watched him play this last year. I’m sure there is enough video out there if you look for it. Not to be a putz to you but that’s just not something that I’m going to do. We’ll see him play during ST. I’m sure that more will see what I’ve described.

I think the contention is that if he doesn’t end up as a SS he’s somehow a lesser player. I disagree. I think he’s Robinson Cano and paired with Gunnar, they’re going to be a ridiculous offensive tandem up the middle.

He will get better with reps, time, maturity, etc. all of the things that I have agreed with as it pertains to his development but I just don’t see him as a good defensive SS. Much better suited for 2B in my opinion but we’ll see. Elias and Hyde and company obviously know more. It’s only a good thing if he grows into an adequate SS. It’s not like I’m rooting against him there. 

Stiff hips etc. is a strange read to me.  He’s very athletic and has incredible mobility.  
 

I’m with you as well and pulling for him big time, was just curious if you’d seen something  that I had missed.  

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The difference in his lifting numbers is pretty staggering.  Kid clearly is willing to work. That is huge. 

His drive level from all I heard is 200%

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Definitely put on some muscle this past off-season.

Also, don’t sleep on the fact that when you are 19 turning 20 your body is a freak show hormone work house.  If you play your cards right in those years  

[Sports Guy]

2 hours ago, Pickles said:

It's way off-topic but I'm intrigued by the idea he could play a good CF.  He doesn't look that fast.

I think the idea has merit depending on many factors.

[OriolesMagic83]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I do as well but I also trust what Elias said when he’s drafted him. I trust what every evaluator is saying.

The one thing every one (other than Law which is still so odd to me) seems to agree on is that the arm isn’t good enough and needs to get stronger. As with almost every 20 year old player (and he was 19 when he last played), he has things to clean up in his game.

His athleticism isn’t in question. Aspects of his defense at SS are not in question. Even JJ Cooper, who just wrote an article about his subpar arm, said he’s not saying he can’t succeed at SS.

He has to improve. He has to want to improve. Whatever he is right now isn’t who he will be in 3 months, 6 months, 1 year or 2 years. 
 

Now, I will say this in terms of just pure right and wrong about my own argument and while this was never specifically talked about, if you had told me last season that he was playing a full MLB season in 2024, I would have said he would be the everyday SS by OD 2025.  He may not be ready to be the everyday SS as quickly as I thought he would. I mean, he may be but I think it’s much more in doubt right now than it was.

I think that if Holliday makes the OD roster, he will play most of his games as 2B, but he will get some games at SS and the O's will be working with him to get better at SS.  This isn't the 80's or 90's where Cal will bat 3rd and play SS every game of the year. 

[Billy F-Face3]

5 hours ago, Just Regular said:

I didn't rewind it or anything but in addition to faking out the runner on Adley's airmailed Throw #1, I thought on Adley's good Throw #2 Holliday showed nice hands completing that play.

I agree and this is what I came to this thread to say. I liked what I saw from Jackson Holliday in the field playing 2B today. As for his hitting, I think fans will have to be patient because right now he is in a gathering information and adjusting to more talented pitching stage. It's a process.

[JanJaap]

Not a hit or on base, he obviously can not live up to the hype

[bobmc]

Can’t catch up to high heat or Adley’s errant throw.  Warning track power …  but I predict that he will be alright!

[Frobby]

11 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

 

What I’m disagreeing with is that he can’t end up at SS and that he can’t improve and be above average over there. That isn’t my opinion. I have yet to really see him outside of some video here and there.  

We may never know.  Let’s say Holliday spends the next five years perfecting his skills at 2B while Gunnar’s at SS.  Will he get moved to SS after all that time if Gunnar leaves as a free agent?   Maybe, but maybe not.  And it may not be reflective of whatever innate ability to play SS he once had.  

I already gave the Manny example, and here’s another: Bobby Grich.  Grich played 424 games at SS in the minors, only 62 at 2B.  Believe me, he had the skills to play SS.   But the O’s had Mark Belanger, whose defense was vastly superior not only to Grich, but any other SS playing in that era.  So Grich was moved to 2B, where he won 4 straight Gold Gloves.  After he was traded to the Angels, they tried him at SS the next year, but by that time his skills at 2B were just much better.   The Angels moved him back to 2B and that was the end of that.   

What would have happened to Manny Machado if the O’s hadn’t had JJ Hardy when he came up?  What would have happened to Grich if Belanger wasn’t on the O’s?   We’ll never know.  

 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

We may never know.  Let’s say Holliday spends the next five years perfecting his skills at 2B while Gunnar’s at SS.  Will he get moved to SS after all that time if Gunnar leaves as a free agent?   Maybe, but maybe not.  And it may not be reflective of whatever innate ability to play SS he once had.  

I already gave the Manny example, and here’s another: Bobby Grich.  Grich played 424 games at SS in the minors, only 62 at 2B.  Believe me, he had the skills to play SS.   But the O’s had Mark Belanger, whose defense was vastly superior not only to Grich, but any other SS playing in that era.  So Grich was moved to 2B, where he won 4 straight Gold Gloves.  After he was traded to the Angels, they tried him at SS the next year, but by that time his skills at 2B were just much better.   The Angels moved him back to 2B and that was the end of that.   

What would have happened to Manny Machado if the O’s hadn’t had JJ Hardy when he came up?  What would have happened to Grich if Belanger wasn’t on the O’s?   We’ll never know.  

 

Sure..could happen. For me, I think third base is why it won’t happen. I just don’t see Westburg or Mayo being as dynamic at third as I think Gunnar will be but if either of them proves that to be a wrong statement, things could change.

 

[Sanity Check]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

We may never know.  Let’s say Holliday spends the next five years perfecting his skills at 2B while Gunnar’s at SS.  Will he get moved to SS after all that time if Gunnar leaves as a free agent?   Maybe, but maybe not.  And it may not be reflective of whatever innate ability to play SS he once had.  

I already gave the Manny example, and here’s another: Bobby Grich.  Grich played 424 games at SS in the minors, only 62 at 2B.  Believe me, he had the skills to play SS.   But the O’s had Mark Belanger, whose defense was vastly superior not only to Grich, but any other SS playing in that era.  So Grich was moved to 2B, where he won 4 straight Gold Gloves.  After he was traded to the Angels, they tried him at SS the next year, but by that time his skills at 2B were just much better.   The Angels moved him back to 2B and that was the end of that.   

What would have happened to Manny Machado if the O’s hadn’t had JJ Hardy when he came up?  What would have happened to Grich if Belanger wasn’t on the O’s?   We’ll never know.  

 

I think this is spot on.  Right now, the Orioles see Holliday as a second baseman.  Yesterday gave us a hint at who plays short when Henderson doesn't.  Yes, I know it's only spring training, but if the Orioles wanted to see Holliday at shortstop, yesterday could have been that opportunity.  I predict that over 90% of Holliday's innings in spring training will be at 2B.

I also believe that if Mateo is somehow not on the team on Opening Day and Urias is, then Urias would become Henderson's off-day backup.....with Holliday still manning 2B.  Am I crazy to think/beleive that?

[Sanity Check]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure..could happen. For me, I think third base is why it won’t happen. I just don’t see Westburg or Mayo being as dynamic at third as I think Gunnar will be but if either of them proves that to be a wrong statement, things could change.

 

I think Westburg or Mayo will be dynamic enough so that Henderson doesn't have to move to 3B.  I also think Henderson is (and will be) dynamic enough at shortstop to stay there for a long time.  I know that everyone doesn't agree with this....but the alignment that I think I see through Elias/Hyde's eyes has Henderson and Holliday up the middle - on their respective sides - for years to come.  Henderson isn't moving unless he shows he can't be a really good shortstop, and we have to find an alternative.  I don't see that happening.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I think this is spot on.  Right now, the Orioles see Holliday as a second baseman.  Yesterday gave us a hint at who plays short when Henderson doesn't.  Yes, I know it's only spring training, but if the Orioles wanted to see Holliday at shortstop, yesterday could have been that opportunity.  I predict that over 90% of Holliday's innings in spring training will be at 2B.

I also believe that if Mateo is somehow not on the team on Opening Day and Urias is, then Urias would become Henderson's off-day backup.....with Holliday still manning 2B.  Am I crazy to think/beleive that?

Yes you are.

And Mateo is making the team.

And of course he’s going to get most of his time at second. That is the position he will play the most in 2024. The plan is as stated. Most of his time at second and play some SS.

I think for right now, the focus should be on making the team. The rest will play itself out.

[ThisIsBirdland]

3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I think this is spot on.  Right now, the Orioles see Holliday as a second baseman.  Yesterday gave us a hint at who plays short when Henderson doesn't.  Yes, I know it's only spring training, but if the Orioles wanted to see Holliday at shortstop, yesterday could have been that opportunity.  I predict that over 90% of Holliday's innings in spring training will be at 2B.

I also believe that if Mateo is somehow not on the team on Opening Day and Urias is, then Urias would become Henderson's off-day backup.....with Holliday still manning 2B.  Am I crazy to think/beleive that?

O’s brass has said Holliday will see some time at SS and I have no reason not to believe that. I think the reason you’ll see Holliday get the majority of his ST reps at 2B is because that’s where he needs to develop. I don’t think it’s an indictment of his play at SS necessarily.

[Sanity Check]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes you are.

And Mateo is making the team.

And of course he’s going to get most of his time at second. That is the position he will play the most in 2024. The plan is as stated. Most of his time at second and play some SS.

I think for right now, the focus should be on making the team. The rest will play itself out.

Did Elias say "most of his time at second and play some SS" literally, or is that just what you think?  I'm not sure I heard (or read his quote) that Holliday would play some SS.  But, I could be wrong.  Did he actually say that?