Should Bergesen be in the Orioles rotation to start the season?

[ADK24]

Here's a poll I'd like to run -- of the 25 people who voted "yes" or "no" in this poll, how many of you have every seen him pitch, even once?

I've watched Bergy pitch since he was here in Delmarva. The pole question had no qualification, i.e. if others fail, etc. so based on what I've seen from him my vote is yes. If he fits the needs of a particular spot on the staff coming out of spring training then, in my opinion, it's absolutely YES!

[Frobby]

Scouts say Bergesen has average stuff. His fastball doesn't reach the 90s. The rest of his pitches aren't off the charts. But he throws strikes, works quickly and has a plan.

Is that good enough to put him in an Orioles uniform, and into their rotation?

"I definitely think so," Zaun said. "I definitely think he has enough stuff. If I can get him to locate his slider and fastball on both sides of the plate, he can win here."

http://masnsports.com/2009/03/zaun-thinks-bergesen-has-the-r.html

[waroriole]

http://masnsports.com/2009/03/zaun-thinks-bergesen-has-the-r.html

I was about to post this quote, b/c it made me think that Bergesen could be benefited by starting the year out in Baltimore and working with Zaun every day. Zaun knows how to handle pitchers and his experience could be beneficial to Bergesen.

[JTrea81]

Zaun noted that Bergesen almost works too quickly, which is why the veteran catcher slowed him down during the first inning of yesterday's start. Bergesen turned in three scoreless innings to go with the two he posted against Italy.

Bergesen's tempo is extremely important to his success. It's something that Griffin worked with him in Bowie on. If he slows down he is much more effective as his sinker starts to rise in the zone when his tempo speeds up.

[Frobby]

Bergesen's tempo is extremely important to his success. It's something that Griffin worked with him in Bowie on. If he slows down he is much more effective as his sinker starts to rise in the zone when his tempo speeds up.

My impression is that even "slowed down," Bergesen is a very fast worker. That tends to bother the hitters and help the fielders, so good for him. I'm looking forward to seeing him in action.

The guy I like watching today who is like this is Mark Buehrle. The batters never get comfortable before he's firing the next pitch.

[Sanfran327]

Question: for all of the scouting reports that say Bergesen's stuff isn't quite up to MLB standards, I'm curious, what was the scouting report on Greg Maddux when he was drafted/coming up? I realize that there's no comparison between the two pitchers, but Maddux used to MOW hitters down in his prime. Struck out TONS of hitters. But he didn't have overwhelming heat or anything that you might see out of a typical strikeout guy. I know he had unbelieveale control, and that's more deadly than anything a radar gun can tell you, but was his off-speed stuff just devastating or what? What was his reputation as a young pitcher? Was his career projected to unfold the way it did?

[tvz1997]

Question: for all of the scouting reports that say Bergesen's stuff isn't quite up to MLB standards, I'm curious, what was the scouting report on Greg Maddux when he was drafted/coming up? I realize that there's no comparison between the two pitchers, but Maddux used to MOW hitters down in his prime. Struck out TONS of hitters. But he didn't have overwhelming heat or anything that you might see out of a typical strikeout guy. I know he had unbelieveale control, and that's more deadly than anything a radar gun can tell you, but was his off-speed stuff just devastating or what? What was his reputation as a young pitcher? Was his career projected to unfold the way it did?

Besides his control, Maddux had ridiculous movement on his pitches that I've read he was able to turn on and off, almost like throwing a straighter pitch like you would work your fastball off of your changeup. He was also very smart and was known to either outthink hitters or psyche them out.

[Sanfran327]

Besides his control, Maddux had ridiculous movement on his pitches that I've read he was able to turn on and off, almost like throwing a straighter pitch like you would work your fastball off of your changeup. He was also very smart and was known to either outthink hitters or psyche them out.

Interesting. Again, I know there's no comparison between Berg and Maddux, but when you think of RHPs that experienced some success without the benefit of 99 MPH heat, he's always the first guy I think of. I also realize that when he was at his peak, he was still throwing about 93-94, which apparently Berg isn't capable of doing. Maybe it's just me, but "heat" is the very last thing I think of when I think of Maddux.

Other guys have done it, and no, nobody is saying any of our guys are going to go out and win 300 games, but it's very possible to have a successful career without a huge fastball. Location is the most important thing to any pitcher, and location can be taught, velocity can't.

[BowieMike]

I may be a bit late jumping into the conversation but I wanted to offer my opinion nonetheless.

Bergesen is probably the most polished upper-level minor league pitcher the Orioles have right now. The scouting reports are true, he doesn't have great stuff. What you see is what you get. What separates Bergesen from many other young pitchers in training camp is his knowledge of pitching. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't have electric stuff, that he knows he'll never be able to reach back for a 95 MPH fastball when he needs it. He throws strikes and pitches to contact with a fastball that sits primarily in the upper 80's to 90-91 MPH.

His two-seamer is what works. He's the type of pitcher that will give you seven innings, inducing somewhere around 12-15 ground balls per game. He knows himself as a pitcher and that's what enables him to find success despite average stuff.

Aside from an average repertoire of pitches, the other knock on Bergesen is his tendency to work too quick. Even on his best days, Bergesen is a fast worker and he uses that aspect of his delivery to his advantage. But sometimes, working rapid fire leads to a few balls being exposed belt-high or worse. Still, working quick seems to make him even more effective. As Mike Griffin would harp on last season, Bergesen simply needs to harness his tempo and keep it under control consistently during the season.

All that said, Bergesen will see The Show at some point this season. I'm confident in that. He established himself last season as a legitimate prospect in one of the better leagues in all of the minors. He's shown a willingness to challenge hitters, attack the zone and go deep in ballgames - all qualities that should make him (as some have predicted) a solid candidate to break camp with the big club.

[Who's On 1st]

I may be a bit late jumping into the conversation but I wanted to offer my opinion nonetheless.

Bergesen is probably the most polished upper-level minor league pitcher the Orioles have right now. The scouting reports are true, he doesn't have great stuff. What you see is what you get. What separates Bergesen from many other young pitchers in training camp is his knowledge of pitching. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't have electric stuff, that he knows he'll never be able to reach back for a 95 MPH fastball when he needs it. He throws strikes and pitches to contact with a fastball that sits primarily in the upper 80's to 90-91 MPH.

His two-seamer is what works. He's the type of pitcher that will give you seven innings, inducing somewhere around 12-15 ground balls per game. He knows himself as a pitcher and that's what enables him to find success despite average stuff.

Aside from an average repertoire of pitches, the other knock on Bergesen is his tendency to work too quick. Even on his best days, Bergesen is a fast worker and he uses that aspect of his delivery to his advantage. But sometimes, working rapid fire leads to a few balls being exposed belt-high or worse. Still, working quick seems to make him even more effective. As Mike Griffin would harp on last season, Bergesen simply needs to harness his tempo and keep it under control consistently during the season.

All that said, Bergesen will see The Show at some point this season. I'm confident in that. He established himself last season as a legitimate prospect in one of the better leagues in all of the minors. He's shown a willingness to challenge hitters, attack the zone and go deep in ballgames - all qualities that should make him (as some have predicted) a solid candidate to break camp with the big club.

I have to agree with this. I have seen Brad pitch many times both in Bowie and on the road. I don't think he will be in the rotation for the start of this season, but I do see him in Baltimore before 2009 in over. I see him starting in 2010 as maybe in the # 3 spot.

Just my 2 cents......

[amateurfan]

I do not mean to offend. I often think that communication is difficult on message boards and it helps if we all understand our own definitions and working applications of terminology. Otherwise, we would just argue over differences that are simply semantic in nature.

An assessment is based on a criteria of known and believed things. For instance, what we know today is far greater than what we knew 400 years ago. When a physician determined that a demon had taken up in a person to cause certain maladies . . . that was an assessment. It was based on known things and a scientific background. It was poor science and poor application, but it was an assessment none the less. Just like when a guy looks at a baseball player and assesses his "gut" that a guy is going to have a big year. That is an assessment. He is taking things known to him and forecasting what the season will look like. Whether I used a complex model or do a gut check . . . that is an assessment and it is an opinion.

You don't offend. After reading enough posts of anyone's you get a feel for how they communicate. You're matter of fact in your posts.

This is a little fun, but not really on baseball. I don't consider guesses or estimates to be opinions. I consider opinions to deal only with what every individual likes and dislikes.

As for JTrea's assertion that all opinions are valid, I don't agree at all, whether called an opinion or an estimate. When assessing information, people can come to different conclusions, but some are better and others worse. Some are so bad that they are completely wrong. The general acceptance that all opinions are valid is not inherently bad, but has become bad because it leads people to think worthy ideas that really ought not be held in the first place. This is because they use the word opinion to mean anything that they are thinking. Some of course, are bad, like "I don't like people of different races."

Nevertheless, I would never tell someone, "Your opinion in liking TS Eliot is bad/wrong." They may not know why, or be able to explain why, but from their gut his poetry or plays are satisfying. Then again, they might be able to explain, and though disagreeing, I am incapable of understanding that person's experiences which make him satisfying, or why his words are the expressions of their experiences.

For example, back to baseball, stating, "I think Santana is the best pitcher right now" is not an opinion. It is an attempt to quantify his ability in relation to his peers. For this reason, too, scouts put ceilings on prospects, because their estimates/assessments are not able to be informed fully or completely measured. You are more capable of assessing Bergesen's potential performance at the ML level than I. You may be wrong, but your assessment is considerably better informed than mine. I wouldn't tell you that your opinion is horrible, just that, were he to become successful, you didn't account for something in your assessment.

Perhaps my definition of opinion is not widely held. I'm ok with that.

[ShoelesJoe]

Yes -- Bergeson's really got nothing left to prove at the minor league level; he is what he is, and he'll either make it or not based on the stuff he showed last year. If he stinks for a couple months (8-10 starts) we've lost nothing substantial, and we've demonstrated to other prospects that if they succeed in the minors the organization will give them a chance to succeed in the majors. And if he actually does well in the rotation we've either found a good arm where we didn't expect or have good trade bait to go get needed position players.

Wasting him at AAA does nobody any good.

[Frobby]

Yes -- Bergeson's really got nothing left to prove at the minor league level; he is what he is, and he'll either make it or not based on the stuff he showed last year. If he stinks for a couple months (8-10 starts) we've lost nothing substantial, and we've demonstrated to other prospects that if they succeed in the minors the organization will give them a chance to succeed in the majors. And if he actually does well in the rotation we've either found a good arm where we didn't expect or have good trade bait to go get needed position players.

Wasting him at AAA does nobody any good.

While I am rooting for Bergesen to make the rotation, I disagree with this post. First, Bergesen has never pitched at AAA, so I disagree that he "has nothing left to prove at the minor league level." Second, I disagree (and hope it's not true) that he "is what he is." Left-handed hitters it .307 off him in AA last year, and if he "is what he is" that means lefties are going to crush him at the major league level. It may very well be that he needs to work on his approach against lefties at the minor league level before he's ready to succeed at the major league level. However, the reason we have spring training, and the reason we have a manager, a coaching staff and scouts, is to determine whether Bergesen's work prior to the season shows he's got a reasonable chance of succeeding in the majors now without having to work on this more in the minors. I hope that will be the case, but it's simply wrong to say he has nothing to prove at the minor league level and that he is what he is.

[Flosman]

Yes -- Bergeson's really got nothing left to prove at the minor league level; he is what he is, and he'll either make it or not based on the stuff he showed last year. If he stinks for a couple months (8-10 starts) we've lost nothing substantial, and we've demonstrated to other prospects that if they succeed in the minors the organization will give them a chance to succeed in the majors. And if he actually does well in the rotation we've either found a good arm where we didn't expect or have good trade bait to go get needed position players.

Wasting him at AAA does nobody any good.

The bolded parts IMO can't be farther from the truth. BB would not be wasted at AAA. It would be nice if we started letting guys prove that they can get A, then AA, then AAA batters out. Then maybe we would stop having guys like Liz, Dcab, Bedard etc., etc., trying to learn more than just the fine points at the ML level. DT said something early last year in that the Majors ARE NOT an instructional league. This has stuck with me even though has a fan I would love to start seeing these young guys in Baltimore, however I would rather see us win for an extended time. Look back at the glory days of the guys at AAA that had great seasons and repeated. The cupboard is finally not bare and if the FO has the disipline to stay the course I think we might actually turn the corner and return to a team that we can be proud of.

Also BB is not a stuff guy, exposure to more advanced hitters is only going to help him learn how to attack the higher level batters more effectively when he gets to the MLs. Now the FO might determine that he is ready this spring, but if they send him to AAA it is not wasted time.

[Ruzious]

Interesting. Again, I know there's no comparison between Berg and Maddux, but when you think of RHPs that experienced some success without the benefit of 99 MPH heat, he's always the first guy I think of. I also realize that when he was at his peak, he was still throwing about 93-94, which apparently Berg isn't capable of doing. Maybe it's just me, but "heat" is the very last thing I think of when I think of Maddux.

LOL. You're not the first person I've heard say that Maddux used to throw hard, but he never approached 93-94. I've been a Braves fan since when Hank Aaron played there, and Maddux's fastball was in the 88-90 area - in his peak. He was just a master at his craft - who worked extraordinarily efficiently with amazing consistency and never backed down and never got injured.