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A philosophical question re offense and defense


Frobby

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From a game theory standpoint, you can never win if you don't score, so I'd go with either the +10 off/-10 def or average guy. I would not want a team full of pure defense guys that bring no offense to the table. 

Seems like the O's definitely like guys who can hit but they also value at least some defensive ability and versatility. 

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7 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

From a game theory standpoint, you can never win if you don't score, so I'd go with either the +10 off/-10 def or average guy. I would not want a team full of pure defense guys that bring no offense to the table. 

Seems like the O's definitely like guys who can hit but they also value at least some defensive ability and versatility. 

To be clear. + 10 and -10 are compared to average.  I think you know that, but a guy with -10 offense doesn’t mean “pure defense guy.”  

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I dont know if this is pertinent to the post...but I want people to see this quote about ONE of the prospects in question: "

I resisted writing about Mayo last week, as he just continues to impress, week after week, and how many times can I write that he hits the ball really hard, hits it in the air, doesn't swing and miss very much and is very young? So instead, I'll just hope that he'll be up in the majors soon so I don't have to find new ways to express just how elite of a prospect he is.

Jordan Westburg's emergence has perhaps clouded the immediate future for Mavo, but there's no question he's shown everything he needs to. He checks every analytical box, and hopefully the Orioles find a way to squeeze him into their major leaque roster soon.

JJ Cooper, Baseball America

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2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

To be clear. + 10 and -10 are compared to average.  I think you know that, but a guy with -10 offense doesn’t mean “pure defense guy.”  

True. So any combination of guys will score runs with the same net run differential.

I guess part of the game would be to construct a roster where you have players with a bunch of different skillsets, and then maximize each player's advantage depending on the situation. That is also definitely something the Orioles have done very well under Elias/Hyde. 

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Boring answer but I’m going with the average hitter, average defender. Everyone loves a great hitter but just wait til they have a DJ Stewart bonk on the head moment time after time and the offense won’t seem so great. On the other hand, Izturis was cool to have on the team until he came up to bat. 
 

Give me someone who will make most of the plays and won’t kill you at the plate. 

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IMHO defensive prowess at premium positions generally benefits your pitchers to a more significant degree than offensive prowess. So C, CF, SS, 2B are positions that I would be OK with one or two players who profile +10 D/-10 O. I think the corners, (LF, RF, 3B and 1B) are where you can have one or two +10 O/-10 D types. 3B tends to be a corner spot where a stellar defender can change the course of a game or series, however. 

I also believe that defensive skill is more highly correlated with superb athleticism; whereas offensive skills are less highly correlated with athleticism.  In other words, it's rare to see a great defender who is not a great athlete; but there are many excellent hitters who are not very athletic. 

I think the O's like players who can defend at a very high level. I think they like exceptional athletes who are versatile defensively. They have been fortunate that many of their prospects are superb on both sides of the ball. 

 

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6 minutes ago, oriole said:

Boring answer but I’m going with the average hitter, average defender. Everyone loves a great hitter but just wait til they have a DJ Stewart bonk on the head moment time after time and the offense won’t seem so great. On the other hand, Izturis was cool to have on the team until he came up to bat. 
 

Give me someone who will make most of the plays and won’t kill you at the plate. 

If Stewart had been that guy with a bat we wouldn't have cared that much.

He was a 0 bat -10 glove guy.

A better example would be Nelson Cruz maybe.

Edited by Can_of_corn
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7 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

IMHO defensive prowess at premium positions generally benefits your pitchers to a more significant degree than offensive prowess. So C, CF, SS, 2B are positions that I would be OK with one or two players who profile +10 D/-10 O. I think the corners, (LF, RF, 3B and 1B) are where you can have one or two +10 O/-10 D types. 3B tends to be a corner spot where a stellar defender can change the course of a game or series, however. 

I also believe that defensive skill is more highly correlated with superb athleticism; whereas offensive skills are less highly correlated with athleticism.  In other words, it's rare to see a great defender who is not a great athlete; but there are many excellent hitters who are not very athletic. 

I think the O's like players who can defend at a very high level. I think they like exceptional athletes who are versatile defensively. They have been fortunate that many of their prospects are superb on both sides of the ball. 

 

Jeter was a -10 defense guy.

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2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If Stewart had been that guy with a bat we wouldn't have cared that much.

He was a 0 bat -10 glove guy.

A better example would be Nelson Cruz maybe.

I wasn’t referring to him overall as a player. I meant that is the type of play that might happen with a -10 defense guy.

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11 minutes ago, oriole said:

I wasn’t referring to him overall as a player. I meant that is the type of play that might happen with a -10 defense guy.

And the poor glove would have, to an extent, been laughed off if he was a big time bat.

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11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Jeter was a -10 defense guy.

What does that have to do with what he posted?    He said great defenders are usually good athletes.  He didn’t say all great athletes are great defenders.

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