Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

I had to look after reading your comment. From 92-97 he was in the top 10 MVP voting 3 times. In 11 seasons from 1993 to 2003 he hit 433 home runs which is an average of 39. Id say he was a top 10 player!

I don’t think you grasp the stat inflation during that period.   He might be toward the bottom of top 15 position players. 

[Orange]

He passed a polygraph test about denying that he knew he had taken steroids… that it was one of those tainted B12 injections. He wagged his finger at Congress, too. It never looked like his body changed much and he didn’t really have a spike in production because he was so consistently great. I know I sound naive, but I don’t think it’s a definite that he knew he had taken steroids. He did produce extremely well into his late 30’s and seemed to recover surprisingly well, so I mean sure he probably did it. And I know you can pass lie detector tests, but it’s really hard. I dunno. He probably juiced but he’s always maintained his innocence and it’s possible he didn’t know. 

[Moose Milligan]

He was excellent. That swing was fantastic. 
 

I remember when they signed him, it sort of legitimized the franchise in a weird sort of way. I don’t think they’d signed a big free agent like that before, someone who was in the prime of his career. And coming out of the Glenn Davis Era, people were excited to move on from him. 
 

He just played in an era where offensive numbers were inflated and there were a lot of other great first basemen around. Raffy was a quiet guy that just consistently put up great numbers year in, year out. 
 

I was at the game where he hit two homers in his second go-round with the Orioles. IIRC, he passed Mantle that day. They were playing the Giants, Bonds hit #675.  Really good memories of that day. 

I don’t think anyone ever suspected him of being a steroid guy in the 90s. People turned a blind eye to Canseco, everyone could look at that guy and, if they wanted to, admit to themselves that he was on something stronger than Creatine. Same with McGwire.  

That's the thing about that era, everyone was having fun…players, owners, fans.  And then everyone had to feign horror when the truth came out, pretended like the players that were juicing were a disgrace and suddenly forgetting what a thrilling time it was during the summer of ‘98.  

But back to Raffy, he didn’t look like a steroid guy and I don’t know if he was in the 90s. It’s easy to assume he was based on what we found out later, but I can also see a scenario where he juiced on the back half of his career only.  
 

I always thought it was kind of weird that he was in Congress that day.  I mean, you had Canseco, McGwire and Sosa there, those guys were, like, Mount Rushmore for the steroids era. Schilling was there but he was there just to be a loudmouth because that’s who he is. IIRC, they wanted Giambi to come but he didn’t. 

And then there was Raffy, a guy no one ever suspected of doing PEDs, but was there for some reason anyway. I think when he wagged his finger, everyone believed him…not cause we were Orioles fans, but just because he didn’t have arms like Canseco and his head didn’t suddenly grow like Bonds’ did. 

But he was named in Canseco’s book, a book that people trashed when it came out and everyone called Canseco a liar and a joke. And as much of a doofus as Canseco is, he was the most honest person in Congress that day. 

Edited June 8 by Moose Milligan

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, baltfan said:

I don’t think you grasp the stat inflation during that period.   He might be toward the bottom of top 15 position players. 

I’m grasping … he was more than a home run hitter. Plus in 1999 and 2001 he had 47 each season the leader for the AL was 48 & 52. In between those two seasons he had 39 and the AL leader had 47.

 

Edited June 8 by Roll Tide

[Roll Tide]

41 minutes ago, Orange said:

He passed a polygraph test about denying that he knew he had taken steroids… that it was one of those tainted B12 injections. He wagged his finger at Congress, too. It never looked like his body changed much and he didn’t really have a spike in production because he was so consistently great. I know I sound naive, but I don’t think it’s a definite that he knew he had taken steroids. He did produce extremely well into his late 30’s and seemed to recover surprisingly well, so I mean sure he probably did it. And I know you can pass lie detector tests, but it’s really hard. I dunno. He probably juiced but he’s always maintained his innocence and it’s possible he didn’t know. 

There are different types of steroids. Not everyone makes you inflate. I’m a big Palmeiro fan and I truly believe he used something. I’m his first seven or eight full seasons he hit 26 in a season and it was by far his most. He had under 10 a couple times.

[Natty]

He was the best fielding first baseman ever at catching the short hop throw. He won 3 Gold Gloves.

He had a very smooth uppercut type swing that crushed the ball. 

He did not seem to swing as hard and fast as we see now days with most of our hitters. Heavier bat?

 

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Safelykept said:

Well said, Raffy was a damn good player but Eddie Murray he was not.

 

I had to read this sentence twice.  For a second I thought you were saying Eddie Murray was not a damn good player!

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, Orange said:

He passed a polygraph test about denying that he knew he had taken steroids… that it was one of those tainted B12 injections. He wagged his finger at Congress, too. It never looked like his body changed much and he didn’t really have a spike in production because he was so consistently great. I know I sound naive, but I don’t think it’s a definite that he knew he had taken steroids. He did produce extremely well into his late 30’s and seemed to recover surprisingly well, so I mean sure he probably did it. And I know you can pass lie detector tests, but it’s really hard. I dunno. He probably juiced but he’s always maintained his innocence and it’s possible he didn’t know. 

There are different types of steroids. Not everyone makes you inflate. I’m a big Palmeiro fan and I truly believe he used something. In his first seven or eight full seasons he hit 26 in a season and it was by far his most. He had under 10 a couple times.

Edited June 8 by Roll Tide

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

I’m grasping … he was more than a home run hitter. Plus in 1999 and 2001 he had 47 each season the leader for the AL was 48 & 52. In between those two seasons he had 39 and the AL leader had 47.

 

List of guys better than him

ARod

Griffey

Frank Thomas

Mark McGwire

Roberto Alomar

Mo Vaughn

Jim Thome

Albert Belle

Ivan Rodriguez

Piazza

Bonds

Chipper

Sheffield

Bagwell

Biggio

Larkin

[Jim'sKid26]

5 hours ago, SemperFi said:

From college on he was always in Will Clark's shadow.  Came up as a line drive hitter with very quick wrists and once he filled out  (or started using) started to pull the ball and produced really big power numbers.  

Although some compare his numbers to Murray-IMO Eddie was a much more skilled player and it is bourne out by their MVP votes-Palmiero was once top 5 for MVP, Eddie had a 5 year run of top 5's and two other top 6 in his career.

So by his peers Palmiero was considered a very good player but Murray was elite-likely the best in the AL over his peak productivity window.

It's difficult to compare steroid era numbers-way too productive in their late 30's when guys from different eras were breaking down.

 

 

Actually, that's not true. He was a better and more powerful hitter than Clark in college. The issue was that Palmeiro had a great year as a sophomore but did not receive the recognition many thought he should have in 1984. That year Oddibe McDowell of ASU won the Golden Spikes Award while producing a far inferior stat line to Raffy. Oh, and Cal State Fullerton (my alma mater) won the College World Series that year. MSU was knocked out of their own regional that year by the University of New Orleans. The next year, 1985, Will Clark won the Golden Spikes award, Miami won the CWS and MSU made it to the CWS but lost to Miami in the semi finals. I think Raffy always resented Clark for getting more recognition. 

"As a freshman, Palmeiro started the season with a 20-game hitting streak — the second-longest in Mississippi State history. An outfielder, he led the Bulldogs in batting average (.406) and home runs(8), set the school record for hits in a season (95), and was the only freshman selected to the Baseball America College All-America team.

The next year Palmeiro led the Southeastern Conference with a batting average of .415, 94 RBIs, and a record 29 home runs, becoming the first SEC player to win the Triple Crown. Teammate Will Clark was right behind with 93 RBIs and 28 home runs. Their 57 combined home runs were the most by teammates in SEC history and the duo became known as “Thunder and Lightning.” Although he didn’t win, Palmeiro was nominated for the Golden Spikes Award, given to the best college player in the country.

As a junior, Palmeiro had his poorest season, batting only .300 with 20 home runs and 67 RBIs.Despite that, he set SEC career records for hits, home runs, and RBIs."

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/rafael-palmeiro/

Clark had a better early career than Palmeiro and got more accolades. But Raffy had a better overall MLB career.

[foxfield]

I find the comps to Murray interesting but not persuasive.  One thing though...my god Raffy had a beautiful swing.  I think for me...it's him and the kid, Ken Griffey Jr.

And his career numbers are strong.  I think Eddie was the better player.  I think people also forget that Eddie was run out of Baltimore and circled back near the end.

[SemperFi]

10 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

Actually, that's not true. He was a better and more powerful hitter than Clark in college. The issue was that Palmeiro had a great year as a sophomore but did not receive the recognition many thought he should have in 1984. That year Oddibe McDowell of ASU won the Golden Spikes Award while producing a far inferior stat line to Raffy. Oh, and Cal State Fullerton (my alma mater) won the College World Series that year. MSU was knocked out of their own regional that year by the University of New Orleans. The next year, 1985, Will Clark won the Golden Spikes award, Miami won the CWS and MSU made it to the CWS but lost to Miami in the semi finals. I think Raffy always resented Clark for getting more recognition. 

"As a freshman, Palmeiro started the season with a 20-game hitting streak — the second-longest in Mississippi State history. An outfielder, he led the Bulldogs in batting average (.406) and home runs(8), set the school record for hits in a season (95), and was the only freshman selected to the Baseball America College All-America team.

The next year Palmeiro led the Southeastern Conference with a batting average of .415, 94 RBIs, and a record 29 home runs, becoming the first SEC player to win the Triple Crown. Teammate Will Clark was right behind with 93 RBIs and 28 home runs. Their 57 combined home runs were the most by teammates in SEC history and the duo became known as “Thunder and Lightning.” Although he didn’t win, Palmeiro was nominated for the Golden Spikes Award, given to the best college player in the country.

As a junior, Palmeiro had his poorest season, batting only .300 with 20 home runs and 67 RBIs.Despite that, he set SEC career records for hits, home runs, and RBIs."

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/rafael-palmeiro/

Clark had a better early career than Palmeiro and got more accolades. But Raffy had a better overall MLB career.

Fair enough-their senior year in college.  Palmiero was picked 22nd overall to Clark at 2 and felt slighted.  He was rebuffed by Texas for Clark and  developed a resentment calling him a "low life" for taking his job.  Clark was viewed as the superior player and certainly teammate (Sandberg's wife) until later in their careers when steroids took over.  Until steroids kicked in most in MLB considered Clark the preferred player and teammate and Palmiero from back to his days at MSU resented it. 

[Jim'sKid26]

28 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

Fair enough-their senior year in college.  Palmiero was picked 22nd overall to Clark at 2 and felt slighted.  He was rebuffed by Texas for Clark and  developed a resentment calling him a "low life" for taking his job.  Clark was viewed as the superior player and certainly teammate (Sandberg's wife) until later in their careers when steroids took over.  Until steroids kicked in most in MLB considered Clark the preferred player and teammate and Palmiero from back to his days at MSU resented it. 

I had forgotten about the Cindy Sandberg rumors. Apparently that factored in his trade away from Chicago. You have an impressive fund of knowledge!

[Just Regular]

I knew Clark and Palmeiro were MSU together but never knew they were kind of a Gerrit and Bauer at UCLA beautiful relationship.

Jordan Westburg's got some climbing to do on that alum list.

[deward]

1 hour ago, Just Regular said:

I knew Clark and Palmeiro were MSU together but never knew they were kind of a Gerrit and Bauer at UCLA beautiful relationship.

Jordan Westburg's got some climbing to do on that alum list.

The SEC network has a 30 for 30 type documentary series called SEC Storied, which did an episode a little while back on the 1985 State team, called Thunder and Lightning (in reference to Clark and Palmeiro). It's pretty good. That same team also had Bobby Thigpen and Jeff Brantley.