Boswell on Attendance

[howie14]

Janet Marie Smith always credited Jacobs with envisioning the retro look, particularly the tall wall in right. It was supposed to be a tribute to the wall in right at Ebbetts Field.

BTW, EBW did sign the lease agreement which led to the building of OPACY. He died later that same year.

[RShack]

OK, this is good... let's *do* get the story straight... help me out here...

I know for a fact that Willie Don was in love with the KC ballpark: both the stadium and the setting. My dad sent me newspaper clippings about it, with little notes about how it surprised him that Willie Don would like *anything* that was not in the City. I'm sure it was not hard to turn him around to favor a downtown site. But when did this happen? And who turned him around. I thought it was Jacobs, but others here point out that there's a timeline problem with the way I remember it. So, what's the right timeline about the whole stadium thing?

[Birds of B'more]

I think Jacobs has more to do with the building of the ballpark than you're giving him credit for.

I don't save clippings the way I should, but as I recall, he had some definite ideas about the design, specifically, he wanted the tall scoreboard in RF, as he thought it would be distinctive the way the Green Monster is in Fenway.

In addition, I seem to remember that he was a strong advocate for a creative design in other areas. Those are my memories, however, and I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

I misspoke when I referred to "Jacobs' legacy" to the park. What I meant to say and should have said was that a baseball-only stadium would have been built in downtown Baltimore with or without Eli Jacobs. Robert Irsay had more to do with MD building OPACY than Eli Jacobs did.

[howie14]

I misspoke when I referred to "Jacobs' legacy" to the park. What I meant to say and should have said was that a baseball-only stadium would have been built in downtown Baltimore with or without Eli Jacobs. Robert Irsay had more to do with MD building OPACY than Eli Jacobs did.

Irsay and the long series of year to year leases EBW kept signing led to the creation of the MSA and the legislation for the ballpark(s). A creative decision by the Court of Appeals kept that legislation away from referendum where DC suburban voters (and anti ballpark forces up here as well) would surely have killed it.

Jacobs, Smith and the people at HOK made sure it didn't windup looking like the "new Comiskey".

[BaltimoreTerp]

Ballpark: Camden Yards and the Building of an American Dream

Read it

[Mark Carver]

Ballpark: Camden Yards and the Building of an American Dream

Read it

Editorial Reviews and excerpt :002_sbiggrin:

[Orsulak]

One thing I will bring up, however. At the time the debate was raging over moving the Expos here, Sally Jenkins, a columnist for The Washington Post, wrote at least two columns criticizing the move. Her arguments had nothing to do with the Orioles. Her arguments were that a city so beleaguered had no business spending money to build a ballpark.

She wrote eloquently, and her facts were well-researched. She talked about tragedy of a broken city, and she pointed out that tax money spent on a ballpark was wasted.

You said that "Boswell never goes anywhere near that issue," but that's not so. He wrote at least one column, which I saved for a long time (and cannot find this morning) in which he used the ludicrous argument that because the tax money used to build the ballpark will come from businesses, not individuals, then that tax money is not money that would be available for other city services.

Anyone who has ever looked into the way government works knows that such an argument is fallacious on its face.

Well, we're in complete agreement on this. And if I was a little bit of a hard-a§§ about your choice of words to describe Bos's arguments before, you've got me back by citing that column where he argued for public funding for a ballpark. I'd forgotten. I remember during that whole episode that Boswell's defense of public funding for a DC team seemed totally phony: a sportswriter, who lives in Annapolis, pretending to be an expert and advocate for DC economic development, when all he wanted was a new team to root for and write more columns about. Jenkins' point was correct. At a time when DC won't even fund a public hospital anymore (sorry, i'm a DC native), spending all that cash on a stadium just seemed wrong. And as usual, the explanation, which Boswell probably repeated, was that the ballpark would magically bring jobs to the city. And all the studies on that subject say it isn't so.

Where we disagree is on the question of Angelos' interests in all this and whether he was acting in defense of the club and its fans. How do you know that a team in DC will prevent the Orioles from being financially able to compete? You can only take Peter's word for it.

[WEAVERMAN]

Boswell could save a lot of time, and save The Washington Post a lot of space and ink, if he would write only one sentence in every one of his columns about the Orioles:

I hate Angelos.

I'm not saying his column this morning was wrong. He makes some logical, but very obvious, points.

But his only real reason for writing is that he gets to rub Angelos' nose in yet another problem.

And by the way, don't you love the way he trots out every possible excuse for his beloved Nationals' failure to draw big crowds?

Oh boo-hoo, the ownership this, the TV contract that, the politicians are dopes, sob-sob-sob.

D.C. is a city, Boswell assured us for years, that was so starved for baseball, it would shower any major-league team with unbridled love from now until the end of time.

Hmmmmmmm, we must be rapidly approaching the end of time.

Well said, as usual, Jim Busby.

[TonySoprano]

Almost as soon as he became principal owner of the Baltimore Orioles in 1979, Edward Bennett Williams began lobbying for a better ballpark. Aided by William Schaefer, mayor of Baltimore and subsequently governor of Maryland, Williams put together a deal whereby state residents would finance the stadium via a new lottery.

I don't think I was rewriting history much at all. I've read the book by Richmond and recommend it.

[RShack]

Am I the only one here who remembers serious momentum for a new stadium in the burbs to the W or SW, thus making it more convenient to DC?

Does no one have any recollection of Willie Don being all-a-gush about how nice the facilities were in KC, and how *that* should be the roadmap?

I don't mind admitting my mistakes, but I remember this. I wouldn't just make this up for no reason. This has me wondering if I've lost my mind.

[mojmann]

Am I the only one here who remembers serious momentum for a new stadium in the burbs to the W or SW, thus making it more convenient to DC?

Does no one have any recollection fo Willie Don being all-a-gush about how nice the facilities were in KC, and how *that* should be the roadmap?

I don't mind admitting my mistakes, but I remember this. I wouldn't just make this up for no reason. This has me wondering if I've lost my mind.

There was a huge move to put the stadium in the southwest suburbs -- Linthicum, Halethorp, etc. Sites were considered, and many in the legislature wanted that to happen.

But Willie Don -- who may very well have spoken highly of the KC complex (which I understand is in the suburbs) -- fought tooth and nail to get it at Camden Yards. He was in love with the Camden Yards site -- for good reason. Where other people only saw dilapidated warehouses, Willie Don -- as usual -- saw a great deal of potential.

I know this first hand because I covered it extensively as a reporter covering Annapolis.

[SilentJames]

here is MY question.

Between 83 and 93 the Orioles had 6 losing seasons, including a 100+ loss season and multipe 6th and 7th place pitches.

They had NO minor leagues to speak of and the decline had begun.

Angelos is a lot like Herbert Hoover - he gets all the blame for the great depression, and while he didnt do anything to help the matter he sure as hell wasnt the direct cause of it.

The Orioes went almost 20 YEARS between fielding a regular starting postition player - that spans multiple owners and regimes.

EBW wanted to move the team to DC (or at least the suburbs)! He is the one that started the divorce from the B'more area, Jacobs exasperated it and Angelos has reaped the rewards and headaches of that strategy. Willie Don is more responsible for Camden than anyone else.

I hate Angelos like the rest of everyone, but lets not let the mistakes of EBW and Eli bbe forgotten they are just as responsible as anyone in this situation

[belangerules]

Wow. Jim Busby, Orsulak and others - thanks for a thought-provoking and interesting thread...

[jim busby]

Well, we're in complete agreement on this. And if I was a little bit of a hard-a§§ about your choice of words to describe Bos's arguments before, you've got me back by citing that column where he argued for public funding for a ballpark. I'd forgotten. I remember during that whole episode that Boswell's defense of public funding for a DC team seemed totally phony: a sportswriter, who lives in Annapolis, pretending to be an expert and advocate for DC economic development, when all he wanted was a new team to root for and write more columns about. Jenkins' point was correct. At a time when DC won't even fund a public hospital anymore (sorry, i'm a DC native), spending all that cash on a stadium just seemed wrong. And as usual, the explanation, which Boswell probably repeated, was that the ballpark would magically bring jobs to the city. And all the studies on that subject say it isn't so.

Where we disagree is on the question of Angelos' interests in all this and whether he was acting in defense of the club and its fans. How do you know that a team in DC will prevent the Orioles from being financially able to compete? You can only take Peter's word for it.

Thanks for the reply, Orsulak.

At the risk of prolonging this discussion just a little more, I want to discuss your last question to me: "How do you know that a team in DC will prevent the Orioles from being financially able to compete?"

My answer, in all candor, is: I do not know that. I do not know that at all.

And, for the record, I do not "take Peter's word for" anything. I like to think I am enough of a skeptic that I don't take anyone's word for anything.

But with a team in Baltimore and a team in DC, three outcomes are possible:

(1) Both will make sufficient money to field competitive teams.

(2) One team will thrive, the other will wither.

(3) The competition for fans will relegate both to midsize-market status, that is, the teams will do OK financially, but neither will succeed to the point that they will be able to afford to compete with the big boys.

My argument is, no one knows which of those three will happen. Maybe the Boswell types are correct, and both teams will prosper.

But if Boswell is wrong, then we are stuck, from now until the end of time, with two struggling franchises. I do not think MLB should have taken that risk.

We know one thing for sure: Now that the Orioles are in Baltimore and the Nationals are in D.C., MLB isn't going to allow either to move.

When I bring up that argument, I hear people say: "But Chicago has two teams, and they're both successful, money-wise."

Yes, and the two Chicago teams play in their leagues' Central Divisions, neither of which has revenue behemoths such as the New York Yankees, the Boston Red Sox, the New York Mets. Furthermore, the White Sox are newcomers to financial success. If they revert to their previous scuffling status on the field, will they continue to draw well?

Conveniently, no one brings up the San Francisco Bay Area, which has two teams, and one perennially struggles for cash. (The Giants have done well financially since opening their new ballpark. However, once Bonds is gone, I suspect the Giants' attendance will fall off drastically.)

Obviously, I have a lot of strong opinions on a lot of different things, but my motive in discussing Boswell boils down to this: The issue of whether a team belongs in Washington, D.C., should have nothing to do with the personality or performance of Peter G. Angelos.

[mweb]

here is MY question.

Between 83 and 93 the Orioles had 6 losing seasons, including a 100+ loss season and multipe 6th and 7th place pitches.

They had NO minor leagues to speak of and the decline had begun.

Angelos is a lot like Herbert Hoover - he gets all the blame for the great depression, and while he didnt do anything to help the matter he sure as hell wasnt the direct cause of it.

The Orioes went almost 20 YEARS between fielding a regular starting postition player - that spans multiple owners and regimes.

EBW wanted to move the team to DC (or at least the suburbs)! He is the one that started the divorce from the B'more area, Jacobs exasperated it and Angelos has reaped the rewards and headaches of that strategy. Willie Don is more responsible for Camden than anyone else.

I hate Angelos like the rest of everyone, but lets not let the mistakes of EBW and Eli bbe forgotten they are just as responsible as anyone in this situation

Concerning the minor leagues, yeah PA didn't inherit a great system, but there is no excuse for taking so long to improve it. There is also no excuse for the last 8 years. If the last 8 years are the great depression in your analogy, PA is not at all like Hoover, as the vast majority of the blame falls on his shoulders.