I really don't understand the argument...

[olehippi]

Yep....You gain the service time..Other than that, you really didn't gain much at all.

Obviously the service time is an important issue with the O's, as it should be for a team that is rebuilding and not in contention this year. I truly don't understand the almost rabid desire by some to "rush" players to the majors despite the service time factor. Doing so would likely cost the team many extra $$millions a few years from now. Waiting a few more weeks/months carries weight just on the economics alone.

[ejf1025]

It's not about rushing them, it's about experience and steady progression, not A to Z.

No matter what they are quickly progressing through MLB development systems, which is rare. They are gifted athletes, but even gifted athletes need to learn at a steady pace through more advanced levels. Yes, there are exceptions to that, but why not throw them in a level higher for a month or two to make sure they continue to learn the little things learned in the minor leagues. Stay on the safe side and with the Orioles recent history of poor prospect management, I think they're extra cautious. Why not have the extra couple months of mental, physical development that may make a difference in the long term career of the player.

Look at all the can't miss and top prospects of the O's recent history and see guys where maybe if they waited a couple months, could have had a successful career with the O's.

Just my opinion

Do you really think a couple months of padding stats (especially in Wieters case) is going to have any effect on their career?

In 4-5 years are you really going to look back and say, "Thank the Lord we waited til June, we could have ruined everything!"

[ejf1025]

I can't think of another active MLB catcher better-suited to help teach Wieters those subtleties of catching and game-calling. I think the sooner they get started, the faster Matt Wieters will live up to his billing. What about all the experience he's missing out on calling pitches with guys like Derrick Jeter, Dustin Pedroia, Evan Longoria, and the like in the batter's box? He can work and talk strategy with his own pitchers till the cows come home. You can't simulate a Mark Teixeira at-bat. There's as much value in that experience as there is in calling the game.

It's ALL about the service time and NOTHING about working with pitchers he'll see over the next few years. Experience with Bergesen and Hernandez are byproducts of the club's decision to hold him back to gain the extra year, but they weren't REASONS they did it. The club cited it as a reason to delay Wieters' arrival to Camden Yards to save face a little and get the more casual fans to believe it wasn't all about the money.

Excellent.

That's exactly right, by this point Wieters has learned all he needs to learn about calling pitches at the minor league level. You could keep him down their for 5 years, the first thing he's going to realize is that things are drastically different in the bigs.

[Mackus]

Do you really think a couple months of padding stats (especially in Wieters case) is going to have any effect on their career?

In 4-5 years are you really going to look back and say, "Thank the Lord we waited til June, we could have ruined everything!"

Wieters case obviously has nothing to do with performance. Anybody arguing that it does clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

For almost all of the other guys though, I strongly disagree with your original assertion that two months of playing time in the minors can't make a large difference in a prospect's preparedness for the major leagues. For some it does and for some it doesn't. I think Nolan Reimold will be much more prepared to face major league pitching if he spends 3 months in AAA after never having played there before. He may eventually get to the same level regardless of whether he spends time at AAA or straight to MLB, but I think he'll need far less of an adjustment period by getting more time against better talent in AAA.

Bergesen is the only pitcher I'd bring up right now. The rest all have things they need to work on. Several of these guys very well could start mastering the things they need to work on over two to three months and be ready then when I don't think they are ready now. I'm specifically talking about Tillman and Hernandez. Neither of these guys are prepared to be MLB starters right now, neither goes deep enough into games. But in three months, its very possible they will have begun to figure out pitch economy and be going 7 innings deep most starts. Then they'd be ready.

[Sports Guy]

Obviously the service time is an important issue with the O's, as it should be for a team that is rebuilding and not in contention this year. I truly don't understand the almost rabid desire by some to "rush" players to the majors despite the service time factor. Doing so would likely cost the team many extra $$millions a few years from now. Waiting a few more weeks/months carries weight just on the economics alone.

I am not saying to not worry about service time...Obviously, i was for that for Wieters.

But at the point, now that the issue is gone, it doesn't make much sense to wait 2 weeks to do something that could be done now.

If they are ready in 2 weeks, they are ready now.

[ejf1025]

Wieters case obviously has nothing to do with performance. Anybody arguing that it does clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

For almost all of the other guys though, I strongly disagree with your original assertion that two months of playing time in the minors can't make a large difference in a prospect's preparedness for the major leagues. For some it does and for some it doesn't. I think Nolan Reimold will be much more prepared to face major league pitching if he spends 3 months in AAA after never having played there before. He may eventually get to the same level regardless of whether he spends time at AAA or straight to MLB, but I think he'll need far less of an adjustment period by getting more time against better talent in AAA.

Bergesen is the only pitcher I'd bring up right now. The rest all have things they need to work on. Several of these guys very well could start mastering the things they need to work on over two to three months and be ready then when I don't think they are ready now. I'm specifically talking about Tillman and Hernandez. Neither of these guys are prepared to be MLB starters right now, neither goes deep enough into games. But in three months, its very possible they will have begun to figure out pitch economy and be going 7 innings deep most starts. Then they'd be ready.

Perhaps. I've obviously been specifically talking about Wieters and Bergesen...

However, I do not really think a few months makes all that much difference. Certainly, not in terms of a player's long term development. If they'll be good, they'll be good. It just may not be right away.

There's no doubt in my mind, that if you brought Reimold, Tillman and Hernandez up now or in June by September they would reach basically the same place in terms of adjusting to the MLs.

The difference is they would just be a lot worse if they started now with a steeper learning curve...worse than the current options we have. So it's not really worth accelerating them.

[bluedog]

Today is the first day Wieters can be called up as we have the extra year now. The next homestand would make perfect sense for his debut.

I'd actually think hard and long about bringing him up on Monday to catch Bergesen's debut if I'm the O's. I know they might want to have him debut at home, but Matt has already caught Berge twice this season and most of last season and I'm sure they have a strong rapport.

Our young pitching is going to be throwing to Wieters for the next 7 years. Wouldn't be a bad move to promote the first of the "young guns" along with the O's catcher of the future at the same time.

[maudibjr]

The only reason Weiters is down is money. I can see him staying down till June for the super-2, and I can accept that. Zaun is adequate in the meantime.

BB on the other hand, I don't think is gaining anything being kept down, I would bring him up ( I would of had him up on opening day). The only downside I see is that he is not on the 40 man, and someone will have to go. But I don't think anyone will cry a tear if Bass is sent packing. Hernandez needs better control, but he already at the same level as the 3-5 lumps. I would be willing to take kid gloves to Tilman and make sure he is ready as he just turned 21.

Is it worth bringing up sweet Lou or Nolan to ride the pine? Clearly Freel would be the odd man out then.

[Crazysilver03]

I'd actually think hard and long about bringing him up on Monday to catch Bergesen's debut if I'm the O's. I know they might want to have him debut at home, but Matt has already caught Berge twice this season and most of last season and I'm sure they have a strong rapport.

Our young pitching is going to be throwing to Wieters for the next 7 years. Wouldn't be a bad move to promote the first of the "young guns" along with the O's catcher of the future at the same time.

Wieters didn't catch Bergesen's second game.

[TGO]

The Orioles need to put butts in the seats, that's why. That 10 million for Wieters will be partially made up from increased attendance. I could imagine 5,000 - 10,000 a game more if the Orioles bring Wieters up. The kid has that much hype. And you've got 23 home dates before June 1st. Figure about $30 average per person for concessions and tickets and that's $3.5 - $6.9 million right there of extra revenue possibly brought in by just bringing up Wieters...

So that leaves about $2.1 - $6.5 million that you'd have to pay extra over the next 7 years.

This is ludicrous. If you think the O's will get 5-10,000 more fans per home game with Wieters than without him, then I have some investment products I would like to sell you.

[olehippi]

This is ludicrous. If you think the O's will get 5-10,000 more fans per home game with Wieters than without him, then I have some investment products I would like to sell you.

I would definitely tend to agree with this...and I doubt that signing Texeira would have had this kind of impact either.

And just for the sake of argument -- even if Weiters would increase attendence by 5-10K, fewer people attending games because of the current state of the economy would negate those increases.

[TGO]

Let me ask this question: didn't we have this argument about Radhames Liz last year? Repeatedly?

[Old#5fan]

I can maybe see 5,000 more fans than usual coming out for Wieters' first game as an Oriole, but not 10,000 and not every night for the first few weeks.

I agree. His estimates were way overstated in my view as well.

[DrungoHazewood]

This is ludicrous. If you think the O's will get 5-10,000 more fans per home game with Wieters than without him, then I have some investment products I would like to sell you.

There are very, very few documented cases of a single player making a measurable impact on attendance. Thousands of apocryphal or rumored cases with no documentation exist, which keeps the silliness alive for every potential acquisition or callup.

Matt Wieters' impact on attendance will be almost directly related to his impact on the Orioles' win/loss record. Unless maybe he starts talking to the ball, making an obvious effort to groom the catcher's box with his hands, and shaking Brian Roberts' hand on good plays in the middle of the inning.

[MarkF]

A couple weeks--even months--couldn't possibly make a lick of difference on a player's develoment. If Bergesen and Wieters (contractual issues aside) are ready to play here in May and June, they are ready to play here now.

We're not talking Rowell or Erbe here, these guys are ready--we all know it, and they couldn't be worse than Simon/Zaun.

Is there really an argument for keeing them down now? They make us better now, they're not being rushed...I mean, you get to see the young guys play and almost assuredly will see better on-field results. It's have your cake and eat it too.

Just call them up.

My two cents:

First, although the timing issue seems to be legitimate to me, MacPhail has stated that it is not part of the decision and I believe he is telling the truth.

Second, I think there is a subtle difference between what you think is happening here and what is actually happening. The difference stems from your statement I bolded above. It is not yet May or June. Therefore, we don't KNOW that both of these guys will demonstrate that they are ready for the next level. At this point, we can only guess that they will. It is a pretty strong guess - but it is a guess nonetheless. (By the way, if I am wrong and you can actually see the future, some stock quotes for June 30th would really help my IRA.)

MacPhail wants these guys to play at AAA until they have shown that they are definitely ready for a promotion. That can only come when they have played enough for the scouts, manager, coaches and front office to assess them. I think that we shouldn't expect that to happen (especially for Wieters) before mid to late June. Wieters and Bergeson are not there simply to learn. You are absolutely correct on that point. They look like they are ready. But are they and where do they play while you make that determination? Since neither has played at AAA yet, MacPhail clearly believes that you play them at AAA during that process.

We can all certainly disagree with MacPhails' strategy here. In fact, I disagree with it because it seems to treat every player the same, regardless of his makeup. That is not a good way to handle people, IMHO. But to be confused or surprised when he has clearly articulated his plan is to misread what is going on here, I think.

(PS-I hope you don't think I was criticizing you here. I certainly wasn't. Just commenting.)