After Two Weeks of Pie...

[JTrea81]

Just for those who want Pie benched,

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck/2009/04/orioles_pregame_dave_8.html#more

Roch provides a different spin with the same quote:

Trembley said he sees the same things from Felix Pie as everyone else. "Ups and downs." Trembley will "observe the situation closely" while decided whether it would benefit Pie to sit out a few games in a row.

Cue the SG meltdown... :laughlol:

[The Rick]

Roch provides a different spin with the same quote:

Cue the SG meltdown... :laughlol:

More like cue JTrea wetting his britches with joy because you would love nothing more than for Pie to fail just so that you can say you're right.

[Frobby]

That's fine but he's botched the routine plays that a LFer like Carlos Lee or Manny Ramirez would make. And he's made more of those botched plays than the plays where he's actually shown his range.

How many plays are we really talking about?

Personally, I've witnessed one running catch in the gap that no other LF we've had in the last couple of seasons would have made. I've seen 2-3 plays where he got a late jump on a fly ball, but I was unable to tell if he would have caught the ball if he had a better jump (or if any of our other LFs would have made the play). And I've seen 2 plays, maybe three, where he had trouble playing a hot bouncing ball either before or after hitting the wall.

So far his range factor in LF is 1.91. That ties him for 13th among 23 listed LF's. His UZR/150 is 20th among 29 LF's with 50+ innings. So those suggest he's been a little below average, not terrible. And that's pretty much my sense of things.

Obviously if it gets to be June and Pie is still playing below average defense in LF, that would be a major concern. But again I think two weeks is not enough time to draw any conclusions about how Pie will adjust to playing LF.

[square634]

So, Pie and LH are the same except for the offensive part of the game which is about what 60-80% depending on who you believe. Yeh, that is quite inciteful. They're alike except the huge area where they are completely different.

I see what you did there.

[Sports Guy]

More like cue JTrea wetting his britches with joy because you would love nothing more than for Pie to fail just so that you can say you're right.

Here's the thing...Jtrea is already wrong.

There hasn't been one person on this site say that Pie is going to be a stud..No one is saying he is going to be a perennial AS.

We are saying that his MiL career and scouting reports say that he deserves a real chance, something he has yet to have...Jtrea disagrees but he is as wrong about this as he was about the offer we would give to Tex.

[JTrea81]

I'm speechless. You think a guy who has played baseball at a high level with a rep as a great defender can't catch a ground ball in the outfield w/o bobbling it because he doesn't have the instincts to do so. Wow. I'm just at a loss. I really am.

The guy is freaking nervous right now. I can't blame him. Again, it hasn't been very long.

Here's another interesting opinion and it makes perfect sense if you think about it:

In the case of Felix Pie, I don't know that he should have ever really been a top-rated prospect. The raw talent and ridiculous tools that he possesses are huge, and without question he is an extremely gifted athlete. I would strongly urge anyone that hasn't read the story of how Pie was signed as kid to do so, and that may explain why his development has taken longer than most. Long story short, Pie wasn't a baseball player before the team's scouts found him, but the scouts felt his incredible athletic talent and ability would translate well onto the field. Pie's problem is that he lacks the natural instincts of a baseball player, which is something that talent and ability can't compensate for; and his biggest problem is that instincts can't really be taught at any level of the minor leagues.

Or major leagues for that matter...

Now I'm starting to see where this lack of instincts stuff comes from.

[Sports Guy]

Money post. This is dead on what I see also.

Me too...Jtrea is acting as if Pie is Geronimo Berroa out in LF...Acting as if he is clueless out there...Well, we all know who the clueless one really is.

[JTrea81]

Here's more from Sickels:

Scouts reported that he improved his defense (which has previously been rather rough).

his glove (which was a weakness at times in the minors)

So Pie has not always been a top defender like SG and others claim as the TotalZone stats show.

A player who had had to improve their defense in CF to the point where it is just above average is now moving to a new position that he has to learn from scratch.

I'm pretty sure now that his lack of baseball instincts are certainly causing him troubles. What we have is an athlete with tools and not a baseball player. He needs to be sent back down to at least AAA to refine his defense and hitting skills where he can get the repetitions without hurting the play of the players that we have invested in. Athletes are refined into baseball players in the minor leagues not the major leagues.

I imagine Pie is also a drain on the coaching staff as he requires special attention. Perhaps some of this attention that is focused on Pie is taking away from other players that could use help as well...

[Old#5fan]

Me too...Jtrea is acting as if Pie is Geronimo Berroa out in LF...Acting as if he is clueless out there...Well, we all know who the clueless one really is.

Yeah, come to think of it he does remind me of Berroa out there. Darn it, I should have included him on my poll listing of all time worst Oriole Leftfielders! I forgot all about him. :oAt least he could hit though.

[rolliefingers]

Here's another interesting opinion and it makes perfect sense if you think about it:

Or major leagues for that matter...

Now I'm starting to see where this lack of instincts stuff comes from.

I think even the most die-hard stathead would agree that "baseball instincts" are an important part of a prospect's profile. Daniel Cabrera and Corey Patterson, just to name two guys intimately familiar to O's fans, are examples of guys with tremendous physical gifts who couldn't translate those gifts to baseball success. Darnell McDonald and Ntema (Pappy) Ndungidi are other guys I remember who were highly touted more because of their physical ability than their baseball skill.

Here's why Pie is different than those guys: Sustained improvement over multiple levels of competition. At every new level of competition, he has struggled at first, and then improved over time. He declined in AAA last year, which is the only reason he's in Baltimore right now instead of Chicago. But unless you think he suddenly got WORSE over the course of one year at the age of 23, I think his track record shows evidence of his innate potential as a baseball player.

In other words, if Pie lacks baseball instincts, he's done a hell of a job of hiding it.

And yes, that refers to offense. But over the course of his career, hundreds and perhaps thousands of scouts have seen Pie play, and the consensus of those myriad scouting reports has been that he is a plus defender.

Are you accusing the entire scouting community - a group of people who, if you read any baseball writer with any regularity, seem to disagree with each other a lot - of one massive incidence of groupthink in the case of Felix Pie?

(Or, could it be that you don't know what you're talking about?)

[Old#5fan]

Here's more from Sickels:

So Pie has not always been a top defender like SG and others claim as the TotalZone stats show.

A player who had had to improve their defense in CF to the point where it is just above average is now moving to a new position that he has to learn from scratch.

I'm pretty sure now that his lack of baseball instincts are certainly causing him troubles. What we have is an athlete with tools and not a baseball player. He needs to be sent back down to at least AAA to refine his defense and hitting skills where he can get the repetitions without hurting the play of the players that we have invested in. Athletes are refined into baseball players in the minor leagues not the major leagues.

I imagine Pie is also a drain on the coaching staff as he requires special attention. Perhaps some of this attention that is focused on Pie is taking away from other players that could use help as well...

This is as fine a post that has ever been written on this site. I wish I could give you 10 points of reputation but I haven't spread it around enough to give you even one!:clap3: (We also need a standing ovation icon to use here) Maybe the icon guy is readin this and can make one as a result of this post!

[rolliefingers]

Here's more from Sickels:

Haha. Okay, here's the full context of Sickels's quote, which - call me crazy - is rather important:

"Pie was healthy in 2006, hitting .283/.341/.451 in 141 games for Triple-A Iowa. He hit 15 homers and 33 doubles, and stole 17 bases. Scouts reported that he improved his defense (which has previously been rather rough)."

In 2006. This is 2009. Care to find something a little more current?

[rolliefingers]

Not only that, but here's more from the very Sickels link you posted:

"If I were the Cubs, I would give Pie the center field job and let him play, don't pull the plug if he gets off to a slow start. I'd hit him low in the order, 8th if possible, and I'd just let him play. Given the improvement Pie has shown over the last few years, I think he has every chance to end up as a very good player, perhaps an excellent one, provided the Cubs retain faith in him if he gets off to a slow start."

Trea, when the sources you're posting in defense of your position don't even agree with you, perhaps that's a sign...

[Sports Guy]

Not only that, but here's more from the very Sickels link you posted:

"If I were the Cubs, I would give Pie the center field job and let him play, don't pull the plug if he gets off to a slow start. I'd hit him low in the order, 8th if possible, and I'd just let him play. Given the improvement Pie has shown over the last few years, I think he has every chance to end up as a very good player, perhaps an excellent one, provided the Cubs retain faith in him if he gets off to a slow start."

Trea, when the sources you're posting in defense of your position don't even agree with you, perhaps that's a sign...

Its funny actually...Most knowledgable fans who understand where the Orioles are right now would think Jtrea is crazy....But hey, he always has OldFan backing him up. LOL :clap3::rofl::laughlol:

[Sports Guy]

BTW, the instincts people are talking about aren't really about his defense...They are talking his base stealing ability and strike zone judgement.

BA referred to this in their 2007 handbook.

Defensively, they talk about his speed, strong and athleticism.

Now, BA did mention that he takes erratic routes at times...but guess, they said similar things about Jones as well.

In fact, I have heard that about many different young OFers over the years...My guess is that they have gotten away with it in the past in lesser leagues, smaller parks, etc....

But in the majors and minors, its obviously different, so it takes time for them to learn and adjust.

Of course, i am sure Jtrea will disagree with this and bring up some scouting report from Pie in little league but whatever.