Questioning MacPhail's moves...

[Singleton]

I hear all the hype .... But until its here its not! The Orioles have had so many arm injuries that the system can be considered a disaster area.

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I'm not making anything up Dude! Just because I dont agree with the Koolaid sippers doesnt mean I'm pulling stuff out of my backside. Every other major league club projected Uehara as a reliever. He did pitch well in 2 out of 3 starts. But no club with any decent rotation would even consider him their #4 starter much less their #2.

Oh & by the way Gordo ...I have watched him pitch!

It cost the Orioles next to nothing other than money to bring in some respectable pitchers to hold down the fort while the world of talent in our system has time to get here. If you think the money not spent this year is being put on the side to be spent later your mistaken. I dont get how you guys cant see the downfall of needing 13 pitchers when every other team carries 12. In addition to the obvious it handcuffs the team late in games.

Why are you putting words in my mouth ????? Show me where I've said that...To remind you what I said ... I said that the Orioles have 1 sure thing in our rotation right now. They have 3 guys in the rotation that dont belong in the rotation (Simon, Eaton, & Hendrickson). Uehara cant be really called a sure thing .... Any many Japanese players that hit there are handfuls that miss. I want the young guys to do well as much as anyone. But I have learned from years & years not to count your chickens before they hatch. When the Orioles have guys ready they fill find a way to bring them up.

True. Uehara can't be called a sure thing. You think Wolf and Looper are sure things?

What makes our minor league arms more hopeful is that we're not waiting for one guy to arrive. There's a collection of arms on the verge of being here. Some will almost certainly fail but it is likely that some will make the grade.

You're hung up on who's in the rotation in early April instead of seeing the big picture. Simon's not in the rotation anymore. Eaton will not be for long. It's not Eaton vs Garland. It is young guys with promise vs low-upside, expensive guys who will block our talent. Give me the young guys every time. At least there's hope in that.

[BaltimoreTerp]

We might have one in place now...

[Roll Tide]

The past does not equal the future. If it did, there would be no point for any of us to be here since the team would be doomed to fail forever.

Thats ok ...& to a point I agree ...I just live in the show me dont tell me. When we have a organization created staff then I'll believe it. When the Orioles top guys stop going down with arm injuries then I'll believe it.

Please quote your sources on this. And do it without the personal insults (that would be "kool-aid sippers", which I demand a retraction of).

Show me any other organization that said Uehara would even be considered for the top end of your rotation? One of the reasons that Baltimore was attractive to him was we were the organization willing to puthim in the rotation.

So you want to block our own guys because it only costs money? And that is NOT next to nothing, since we offered pretty decent contracts to several of the guys you say you wanted and were turned down for lesser deals in easier situations.

I'm not blocking anyone Terp! The Orioles currently have 3-4 slots that could be filled by a better pitcher. Uehara could be one of many guys that could be moved to the pen if necessary later. Giving another guy or two a 2 year contract wouldnt block any guy the Orioles were convinced were ready. Another scenario would be you hit 2011 and you have a surplus of guys forcing their way on the rotation. Then you could trade Looper or Wolfe or Marquis. That would really suck for us to be in that position. You know Terp ..."You can never have too much pitching"

You continue to put the EXTREME short-term issues ahead of what is best for the team long-term. It's the real-life equivalent of starting to smoke in high school because "everyone is doing it".

Like comparing apples to crab apples;)

Um...yeah.

And you are now getting major facts wrong: Simon isn't in our rotation. Bergesen is.[/

QUOTE]

I was referring to the start of the season. Simon would still be here if he werent injured. I'm watching Bergy pitch & am impressed thus far. I hope you dont think that proves your point.

I bet you think it does:rolleyes:

[Roll Tide]

True. Uehara can't be called a sure thing. You think Wolf and Looper are sure things?

Agreed

What makes our minor league arms more hopeful is that we're not waiting for one guy to arrive. There's a collection of arms on the verge of being here. Some will almost certainly fail but it is likely that some will make the grade.

Agreed ...But again you can never have too much good pitching. Having a extra starter in a 2011 would be a good problem.

You're hung up on who's in the rotation in early April instead of seeing the big picture. Simon's not in the rotation anymore. Eaton will not be for long. It's not Eaton vs Garland. It is young guys with promise vs low-upside, expensive guys who will block our talent. Give me the young guys every time. At least there's hope in that.

I'm hung up on the piss poor product that this team has offered since 97. I want to see something more than a token effort to improve this team. Again the young guys will have a chance when ready. Most here are counting on Tillman to be ready to start next season. the guy cant even get close to 6 innings.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Thats ok ...& to a point I agree ...I just live in the show me dont tell me. When we have a organization created staff then I'll believe it. When the Orioles top guys stop going down with arm injuries then I'll believe it.

All pitchers, even the ones you are calling for, started as unproven guys. You have to give them a chance.

Show me any other organization that said Uehara would even be considered for the top end of your rotation? One of the reasons that Baltimore was attractive to him was we were the organization willing to puthim in the rotation.

Uh-uh, you brought it up, so the burden of proof is on you.

I'm not blocking anyone Terp! The Orioles currently...

Stop right there. That last word is the sole problem with your thinking, and it's throwing everything after it off. Until you stop thinking in terms of right now, we're really going nowhere.

...have 3-4 slots that could be filled by a better pitcher. Uehara could be one of many guys that could be moved to the pen if necessary later. Giving another guy or two a 2 year contract wouldnt block any guy the Orioles were convinced were ready. Another scenario would be you hit 2011 and you have a surplus of guys forcing their way on the rotation. Then you could trade Looper or Wolfe or Marquis. That would really suck for us to be in that position. You know Terp ..."You can never have too much pitching"

Because I'm sure teams would want a 36-year-old Looper or 34-year-old Wolf.

Like comparing apples to crab apples;)

Nope. You are thinking about the short-term while completely ignoring what it means for the long-term.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'm hung up on the piss poor product that this team has offered since 97. I want to see something more than a token effort to improve this team. Again the young guys will have a chance when ready. Most here are counting on Tillman to be ready to start next season. the guy cant even get close to 6 innings.

Well, I'm glad you know for a fact that he won't get better.

[Roll Tide]

Well, I'm glad you know for a fact that he won't get better.

Well I am glad you seem to know he will.

I'm hoping to see improvement....Personally I think Tillman should have went back to AA to prove he could effectively give his team consistent quality starts at that level (6 or more IP's per start) before being promoted to AAA. The Orioles need to stress the importance of pitching efficency. I have no doubt he has the stuff to blow away guys at AA. But you know as well as I do that it wont work for most guys at the majors. And if a guy struggles to pitch 5 at AA then hes in even bigger trouble when the pitchers here wont swing at pitches out of the zone...Just saying (You dont have to disagree with everything I say ya know:D)

[BaltimoreTerp]

Well I am glad you seem to know he will.

I'm just not willing to throw away the possibility considering he's, you know, learning to pitch.

I'm hoping to see improvement....Personally I think Tillman should have went back to AA to prove he could effectively give his team consistent quality starts at that level (6 or more IP's per start) before being promoted to AAA. The Orioles need to stress the importance of pitching efficency. I have no doubt he has the stuff to blow away guys at AA. But you know as well as I do that it wont work for most guys at the majors. And if a guy struggles to pitch 5 at AA then hes in even bigger trouble when the pitchers here wont swing at pitches out of the zone...Just saying (You dont have to disagree with everything I say ya know:D)

If he has the stuff to blow away guys at AA, he won't learn how to pitch to better hitters.

He can improve that AND his ability to go deeper into games at AAA and be up here later this season. And if not, Berken or Patton or Arrieta or Hernandez or any combination of the above will be.

The attrition rate on pitching prospects is high. It is nowhere near zero, however, especially among highly-regarded prospects.

[Oriolidae85]

You TRY to solve the problem by replacing the likes of Eaton and Hendrickson with the second tier arms in the minors. You don't rush a Tillman, Arrieta or Matusz but there are several tier two guys like Bergason, Patton, Pauley and Waters, just to name four, who should be able to do a heck of a lot better job than Eaton or Hendrickson. And who knows, maybe one will turn out to be major league material.

Two organizational themes are currently leading to alot of O's fans SP frustrations...IMO the O's FO are sacrificing today for the betterment of the Organization :scratchchinhmm:

Theme 1? Make the potential SP's in the system earn their call up. This is highly important, especially considering theme #2 regarding the rotation. Calling BB up now is a prime example of it. He's yet to get his AAA membership and follows theme #2... :scratchchinhmm:

Theme 2?! Do not become desperate at season's end with depth in SP (ala 2008/X). That was the biggest meltdown...during the first two weeks this year, the same can be said. But, keep in mind the O's are balancing time-lines on needed SP prospects with theme #1.

Eaton (innings) is all about applying both theme's together, especially as an immediate reaction to Hill's ST progression. Pauley, Parish, Patton, Hendrickson, Hill, Eaton, etc.... are all viable fillers that create the ability to have fresh SP arms in August and Sept...

For the first time, we might see a SP quality 1/5 making strides in august on.....