"Really proud of the guys"

[DrungoHazewood]

Why is it so crazy for OldFan to pick Zimmerman over Markakis?

As a 3B, Zim is maybe more valuable because RF is a standard power position.

No need to blast him over it, even if he's just saying it to meet his anti-Markakis agenda and rile up people.

Because he'd have the same position if Zimmerman were in the midst of a 3-for-229 slump and Markakis was winning the triple crown.

[Fairfax Bird]

I played 3rd base and pitched. The name of the game is hit it where they ain't and if you don't agree with that then you don't know much about baseball. It doesn't matter how hard or how soft a hit is, a hit is a hit and an out is an out. In a perfect world you would want your guys to hit it hard and hit it where they ain't, but between line drives right at somebody and bloopers that land in the grass I take the bloopers as I have already stated. I agree Jones is having a terrific year, I guess I just get so tired of hearing we battled after every loss. I would prefer to hear "We lost, we play again tomorrow and WE WILL WIN." and then go out and do it.

I can't believe anyone would complain about where Jones has been hitting the ball.

[Old#5fan]

Because he'd have the same position if Zimmerman were in the midst of a 3-for-229 slump and Markakis was winning the triple crown.

Not true. I love Adam Jones because he is not overated on this forum. The guy does it all. Markakis not so much as he has been miserable when the games have been on the line and that is a fact. He has been as noticably bad late in tight games as he has been noticably good early on when there is little pressure.

Great players don't choke or hit 163 when the game is on the line. Sorry, I just think he is way overated here and continues to be with his flaws minimized.

[Mizerooskie]

Not true. I love Adam Jones because he is not overated on this forum. The guy does it all. Markakis not so much as he has been miserable when the games have been on the line and that is a fact. He has been as noticably bad late in tight games as he has been noticably good early on when there is little pressure.

Great players don't choke or hit 163 when the game is on the line. Sorry, I just think he is way overated here and continues to be with his flaws minimized.

Do you know what Markakis' career close and late statistics are?

[ledzepp8]

Your second sentence accurately states my position. I don't think the team's lack of close & late hitting to date is the result of some deep-rooted personality flaw or lack of a skill in its key players or anything of the sort. It was pretty much this exact same group of players that had a ton of come-from-behind wins and near-misses in the first several months last year. These things come and go for most players and most teams. This year's super-clutch player is next year's choke artist. That's baseball.

Some of what he said may have been right. I just take issue with his contention that crappy "close and late" stats through 30+ games are going to be what makes this team be 20+ games back. That's just silly. The Orioles have had close and late situations in 25 out of 41 games so far this season. I think it's pretty admirable that we have been close in that high a percentage of games despite the horrid pitching.

[RShack]

Here's the difference though. Would you rather have Markakis or Jones or Huff (the big three in sluggers) hitting well in tight games late or Close and Late Hitting when the team is still alive or when they are dead meat in August and September? It's that simple. To say those three are all great close and late hitters if their year end stats end up that way when only Jones was doing well early on while the team still had at least a glimpse of hope to compete would be wrong, because padding stats late in the year when the games are more or less going through the motion don't impress me in the least.

You're confusing cause and effect. Of course everybody would want a player to do great early on, to help the team not dig a hole. That's an effect of the player doing well at that point of time. That has nothing to do with the cause of it. You have zero reason to think a guy is a better hitter if he comes through in May instead of August, just like you have zero reason to think that if he hits in August and September, it's a useless exercise in "padding stats".

The very same guy might have the exact same pattern with very different effects. On a competitive team, his August/September performance might get his team to the post-season, and perhaps his team did fine in May because other people on his team came through. For a given hitter, his performance might be exactly the same, and the causes might be exactly the same, but the effects would be very different. The month in which a guy happens to be effective late in close games says zilch about the ability or value of a player, and the actual effects of it are due to the overall performance of the team, not of the individual player.

Perhaps you didn't realize that you were conflating cause and effect before.

[ledzepp8]

Not true. I love Adam Jones because he is not overated on this forum. The guy does it all. Markakis not so much as he has been miserable when the games have been on the line and that is a fact. He has been as noticably bad late in tight games as he has been noticably good early on when there is little pressure.

Great players don't choke or hit 163 when the game is on the line. Sorry, I just think he is way overated here and continues to be with his flaws minimized.

This is ridiculous. Adam Jones is rated just as highly as Markakis on here. Do you not realize that something might be rotten in Denmark, when you are alone in your position on Nick? You're so transparent it's not funny.

[ledzepp8]

Yes, he has been told multiple times by multiple people. He ignores those numbers because it makes his position completely untenable. Instead he continues to quote a position that is based off 25 at bats this year. If this sounds like the definition of a troll to you, well, I don't think your position is untenable.

Yep, he ignores Nick's career stats but touts Mora's career stats when saying he'd take Mora over Nick in close and late situations. He's a walking contradiction.

[Old#5fan]

You're confusing cause and effect. Of course everybody would want a player to do great early on, to help the team not dig a hole. That's an effect of the player doing well at that point of time. That has nothing to do with the cause of it. You have zero reason to think a guy is a better hitter if he comes through in May instead of August, just like you have zero reason to think that if he hits in August and September, it's a useless exercise in "padding stats".

The very same guy might have the exact same pattern with very different effects. On a competitive team, his August/September performance might get his team to the post-season, and perhaps his team did fine in May because other people on his team came through. For a given hitter, his performance might be exactly the same, and the causes might be exactly the same, but the effects would be very different. The month in which a guy happens to be effective late in close games says zilch about the ability or value of a player, and the actual effects of it are due to the overall performance of the team, not of the individual player.

Perhaps you didn't realize that you were conflating cause and effect before.

I undestand what you are espousing, I just don't agree. If your number three hitter is hitting 163 in close and late situations during the entire first third of the season that is a big negative. I cannot imagine most teams' third hitter being that bad. In fact I will take a guess and say Markakis is probably the worst or next to worse third hitter in the AL in close and late hitting right now.

[Mark Carver]

I undestand what you are espousing, I just don't agree. If your number three hitter is hitting 163 in close and late situations during the entire first third of the season that is a big negative. I cannot imagine most teams' third hitter being that bad. In fact I will take a guess and say Markakis is probably the worst or next to worse third hitter in the AL in close and late hitting right now.

FWIW - Batting 3rd, (with 100 AB), as of last night (Thursday) -

White Sox, Carlos Quentin = .214

Pirates, Nate McLouth = .211

Mariners, Ken Griffey Jr, .176

Orioles, Nick Markakis = .167

Red Sox, David Ortiz = .167

Astros, Lance Bergman = .158

A's, Jason Giambi = .150

[Old#5fan]

FWIW - Batting 3rd, (with 100 AB), as of last night (Thursday) -

White Sox, Carlos Quentin = .214

Pirates, Nate McLouth = .211

Mariners, Ken Griffey Jr, .176

Orioles, Nick Markakis = .167

Red Sox, David Ortiz = .167

Astros, Lance Bergman = .158

A's, Jason Giambi = .150

Thanks. So only Giambi who is washed up and Bergman are worse and not by much. I think Ortiz has been playing hurt and it has effected his swing so at least he has an excuse.

[Guest rochester]

I really doubt that the offense will be much of a problem once we get Luke Scott back, Caesar (really surprising me with his bat), and we finally move up Weiters. The bottom half of our lineup is just so dreadful that its hard to have consistency over the entire game. Melvin Mora has been struggling a bit as well, but I think that probably has a lot to do with not having anyone protecting him in the lineup. You put him in the two hole so they have to pitch to him, he gets more to hit, etc. I am not as concerned about our hitting. There are probably a lot of teams that don't hit as well from the 7th inning on, because of the relief pitcher matchups being made and so forth, I haven't done any research, but I'm sure it has a lot to do with, especially since our 3rd and 4th hitters just so happen to both be left handed.

Plus when you are down by so many runs in the late innings like has been the case lately, I don't care who you are, it is going to be a lot harder to stay motivated and focused in every AB, when you probably realize that even if you get on, the other part of the lineup is probably going to struggle driving you in with so many holes right now. You add those bats that I mentioned before to the lineup and I bet you will see a lot more consistent hitting throughout the entire lineup. I personally like the idea of putting Adam Jones between Markakis and Huff to break up the lefty lefty combo. He has proven at least imo that he can be a very productive clean up hitter.

1. B Rob

2. Mora ( he will get pitches to hit and is such an excellent bunter)

3. Markakis

4. Adam Jones

5. Huff

6. Weiters (breaks up Scott and Huff)

7. Scott

8. Reimold

9. Caesar

that lineup I would be very confident in..only a matter of time..

IMO if DT moved AJ from #2 then maybe he does need to be fired...

[weams]

Did he really say that? That's some serious pwnage!

He really said it, and backed it up.

[Mad Mark]

I like the total Adam Jones package slightly better than the total Nick Markakis package because I perceive Jones as a guy who will become a "face of the franchise", while I see Markakis as a guy who isn't much interested in that side of the coin.

Once they're between the white lines all that goes away, and I'm duly impressed with both of them...despite the appearance of what may be a 30-game "slump" in Markakis' "close and late" stats.

Stats can mess you up. Remember the year the Nationals started off something like 40-0 in one-run games, and then ran off on an 0-40 tear?

[kakesmvp]

IMO if DT moved AJ from #2 then maybe he does need to be fired...

Do you really think it would affect Adam that much to move him to the cleanup hole? He hits the same way regardless... just straight bullets... I don't believe he would change his approach at the plate at all and it breaks up our lefty lefty problem... if not him then maybe Weiters when he comes up? I just don't like the fact that we have Kakes and Huff batting back to back right there.