Is David Ortiz done?

[TyCobb]

So your issue should be on the Sox FO's typical smear campaign when a popular player is on his way out, which I agree is despicable. However, it's also understandable why they do it. The "average" baseball fan doesn't really think about the team's future. They think about the here and now. So they may not see the whole reason why a team trades a player or chooses not to re-sign them. So a couple media leaks and smear campaign later, and you get people thinking that the team is getting rid of a bad influence.

As far as Manny goes, I'm sure part of it is you not living in the media market, but there were a fair share of Sox fans that didn't like Manny's antics while he was with the Sox. In addition, with the way he handled his final season with the Sox, you could say the backlash was warranted. Of course, some of it is due to the aforementioned smear capaign that is the FO's MO.

Go read the thread on SoSH about Ortiz. There are plenty of people who think they should be giving him every opportunity to work out of it, and plenty of people that think he needs a MiL rehab assignment. Not everyone is attacking the guy. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion about Red Sox fans and their treatment of players, but I'll just agree to disagree.

Yea your right that my angry is more towards the FO than the actually fan base.

[Shopay]

Bill Simmons just wrote an article on ESPN that basically states it's not PED's that have contributed to this demise, but more than likely he's older than his age is. I like Ortiz, even though he plays for the The Nation, but I wouldn't doubt if that is the case, although it wouldn't be easy to prove. The man's bat speed is just gone, and it's not a product of being hurt. It's just gone. When that happens it's a pretty solid indication that your time is practically up.

I have always liked Big Papi as a player, but this (i.e., no PEDs involved) may be wishful thinking on the part of Simmons. His age may have something to do with it, but it's hard for me to imagine that a player drops off as much as Papi has in the last 1 and 1/2 years due strictly to age. It's not like he all the sudden aged 4 to 5 years in that time span. Is it just happenstance that Papi's dropoff in production, which has been significant, coincidentally occurred when MLB started to drug test more stringently? Maybe -- maybe not. Manny being nailed was also an eye opener to me. Not that this indicts Papi. There are probably a few factors in play here, but I'm not as willing as Simmons to dismiss PEDs from the Papi equation.

[Moose Milligan]

Hey, I am not from San Diego.

Bad attitudes? That is simply Red Sox Nation putting that in the air so when they trade them or don't sign them they have an excuse. That is why I can't stand Red Sox Nation.

I have nothing against Ortiz. I just hate Red Sox Nation and the way they treat their players.

No, thats not true. Red Sox Nation treats players very well...witness Pedro and Ortiz.

I don't remember the specific details of what Nomar did, but I do remember him sulking in the dugout during an important series with the Yankees while the rest of his teammates were up cheering and leaning against the railing. IIRC, he was in a funk because Boston has tried to trade him in the prior offseason and the deal fell through so he felt unwanted.

Last summer, we all remember the Manny saga. The "injuries" and the attitude...and what happened when he was traded to LA? He hit almost .400 for the rest of the season and suddenly there were no concerns about his knees. He also didn't do himself any favors when he shoved that traveling secretary early last summer, too.

Say what you want about the bandwagoning Boston fans who have seemingly popped up out of nowhere over the past 5 years, they are the worst.

But the die-hards who have been with the team through thick and thin are pretty good. They're knowledgeable and passionate and treat their heroes (the ones that deserve it) with respect.

[NewMarketSean]

I also think that the age thing could be an issue. For all we know he could be 5 years older than he says he is. He sure doesn't look 34...

[Spoonless]

Yea your right that my angry is more towards the FO than the actually fan base.

Their FO is certainly shrewd. Arroyo took a hometown discount to avoid arbitration in Boston (when he would have made much more going year to year), and they traded him away.

[TyCobb]

No, thats not true. Red Sox Nation treats players very well...witness Pedro and Ortiz.

I don't remember the specific details of what Nomar did, but I do remember him sulking in the dugout during an important series with the Yankees while the rest of his teammates were up cheering and leaning against the railing. IIRC, he was in a funk because Boston has tried to trade him in the prior offseason and the deal fell through so he felt unwanted.

Last summer, we all remember the Manny saga. The "injuries" and the attitude...and what happened when he was traded to LA? He hit almost .400 for the rest of the season and suddenly there were no concerns about his knees. He also didn't do himself any favors when he shoved that traveling secretary early last summer, too.

Say what you want about the bandwagoning Boston fans who have seemingly popped up out of nowhere over the past 5 years, they are the worst.

But the die-hards who have been with the team through thick and thin are pretty good. They're knowledgeable and passionate and treat their heroes (the ones that deserve it) with respect.

Nomar....I think what your are remembering is Jeter diving into the stands when Nomar was not healthy enough to play.

Manny...Was furious on how the team was treating him. Manny wanted to get out of Boston. And he only hit for a .398 wOBA while on the Red Sox. Clearly he was trying to make the team lose.....

I am not talking about the die-hards. Just the Nation itself. Time and Time again they rip their ex teammates.

[blueberryale77]

Even thought Ortiz plays for the bad guys he seemed like a really good guy and looked like he had fun playing the game on a team that looks like they hate it.

I do feel bad for Ortiz a bit, especially from all of the steroids backlash, but we'll never really know what is going on.

At only 34, and as good as he has been over the last 6-7 years, you'd expect him to do better than he has so far this year. Maybe there is something else he's hiding, like an injury or poor eyesight.

With Ortiz though, you almost want to give him the BOTD, because he has been a good guy in the past.

There's been precious little correlation in baseball between being a nice, likeable guy and not using steroids. No matter how much people want to believe the steroid era was a battle between black and white good and evil, it wasn't so. Players just get harsher treatment when they get caught if they were jerks to fans, reporters and teammates along the way, and rightfully so because people should get better treatment if they treat others with respect.

As for Ortiz's situation, there is of course a chance that he's not really "only 34." He is very good friends with a certain former Oriole who would be "only 33" if there hadn't been a scandal about his birth certificate, and they may well have had involvement with some of the same unscrupulous scouts in their teen years who could have convinced him to fudge his age as well. It's also pretty hard to imagine, given the era in which he played, the strange trajectory of his career, his appearance, and his associates, that David Ortiz never took steroids. It doesn't make him any less of a nice guy if he did, just a product of his era. At least if he did do them he appears to have quit without getting caught first.

Anyway, he had a nice career. Here's hoping he retires with dignity and doesn't get caught up in any major scandals.

[TyCobb]

There's been precious little correlation in baseball between being a nice, likeable guy and not using steroids. No matter how much people want to believe the steroid era was a battle between black and white good and evil, it wasn't so. Players just get harsher treatment when they get caught if they were jerks to fans, reporters and teammates along the way, and rightfully so because people should get better treatment if they treat others with respect.

As for Ortiz's situation, there is of course a chance that he's not really "only 34." He is very good friends with a certain former Oriole who would be "only 33" if there hadn't been a scandal about his birth certificate, and they may well have had involvement with some of the same unscrupulous scouts in their teen years who could have convinced him to fudge his age as well. It's also pretty hard to imagine, given the era in which he played, the strange trajectory of his career, his appearance, and his associates, that David Ortiz never took steroids. It doesn't make him any less of a nice guy if he did, just a product of his era. At least if he did do them he appears to have quit without getting caught first.

Anyway, he had a nice career. Here's hoping he retires with dignity and doesn't get caught up in any major scandals.

Maybe he is on the list of 100 or so players. Who knows...and who really cares anymore.

[tennOsfan]

I refuse to cry over a Red Sox player losing his abilities. May Youkilis meet the same fate. I just despise the whole bunch.

[geschinger]

I do not think it is unusual for players to see big declines at Ortiz's stated age when they aren't PEDing. I think that the big impact of steroids is not so much allowing players to perform better than they otherwise might have but more to prolong their peak. I think the number of players who have successfully played at a high level into their mid and late 30s is influenced heavily by PEDs and as usage decreases we're going to see a lot more players start to feel the effects of age a lot earlier.

[QBsILLEST1]

Papi isnt the only one to hit a brick wall around the same time, Andruw Jones, Papi, Delmon Young,Sammy Sosa..... Im sure there are others also, but its just kinda funny it all happened at the same time and out of absolutely NOWHERE.

Both Jones and Ortiz are not old enough to hit a brick wall like that and Young is not even 25 yet, showed major power in the minors and in his 1st big league season, and nothing since then....All this happens right around the time when they begin to really get strict on the PED's.

Its even crazier that there are still many ball players right now using HGH that we dont know about because tests cannot accurately detect that stuff....

[YardBirds13]

Not at all. Name one oriole that we hate because they started to perform poorly after having an amazing 6 year career with us. Did I even say yankee Fans. Nope. Because Red Sox fan's treat their players the worst when they go bad.

Nomar, Pedro, Manny all great Red Soxs are treated like crap the moment they get kicked off the team. Those are just off the top of my head.

Melvin Mora.

[Spoonless]

Papi isnt the only one to hit a brick wall around the same time, Andruw Jones, Papi, Delmon Young,Sammy Sosa..... Im sure there are others also, but its just kinda funny it all happened at the same time and out of absolutely NOWHERE.

Both Jones and Ortiz are not old enough to hit a brick wall like that and Young is not even 25 yet, showed major power in the minors and in his 1st big league season, and nothing since then....All this happens right around the time when they begin to really get strict on the PED's.

Its even crazier that there are still many ball players right now using HGH that we dont know about because tests cannot accurately detect that stuff....

How is Ortiz not old enough to hit a brick wall like that? Even if you assume he's not lying about his age, look at his body type. It's not like we're talking about an athletically built guy who thickens up later in his career. He's a large, large man. Given his body type, I see no reason why he couldn't hit a brick wall at his age.

I refuse to cry over a Red Sox player losing his abilities. May Youkilis meet the same fate. I just despise the whole bunch.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can literally hate players on other teams just because of the laundry. There are generally very few players that I dislike that greatly. Don't get me wrong, I root vehemently for the Red Sox to lose every game they play, but "despise" is such a strong word. It's almost petty.

[sector7g]

His general health seems like it's been in decline since 06 so its not altogether shocking that his bat speed is going with it.

He's been hospitalized for heart palpatations a couple of times the last two years, can't be a good sign at his age.

[Shopay]

I do not think it is unusual for players to see big declines at Ortiz's stated age when they aren't PEDing. I think that the big impact of steroids is not so much allowing players to perform better than they otherwise might have but more to prolong their peak. I think the number of players who have successfully played at a high level into their mid and late 30s is influenced heavily by PEDs and as usage decreases we're going to see a lot more players start to feel the effects of age a lot earlier.

Hence why many GMs are shying away from signing older stars and focusing more on developing their younger players. This trend will only continue, IMO.