Tillman's Innings Pitched

[Stotle]

Actually you throw a change up with the same effort as a fastball (your suppose to anyway). You just grip the ball with more fingers and deeper in the palm to take the MPH off. (I know you know this...not sure why i am typing it)

A change-up would be useful when your going 100% effort in the game. You won't need to throw a change-up when your not going 100% but the wide range in your fastball should not allow the hitter to lock in on your speed as easy as it is when your sitting in your 3mph range.

It seems like throwing a soft fastball would just give you the decreased velocity without the deception. I think that can work at low amateur levels, but I just don't see it playing against good HSers, let alone top pros. The reduced arm speed would be too much of a giveaway, I think.

Anyway, I think I understand what you are getting at, and I don't disagree with the general premise that it would be beneficial to try and figure out an approach wherein the pitcher wasn't forced to put so much effort into every pitch. I think raising the mound, increasing the size of the strikezone, or similar rule changes would achieve this by tipping some of the advantage over towards the pitcher. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is enough wiggle-room (mechanically speaking) for a pitcher to conserve energy within the confines of his in-game actions.

[TyCobb]

It seems like throwing a soft fastball would just give you the decreased velocity without the deception. I think that can work at low amateur levels, but I just don't see it playing against good HSers, let alone top pros. The reduced arm speed would be too much of a giveaway, I think.

Anyway, I think I understand what you are getting at, and I don't disagree with the general premise that it would be beneficial to try and figure out an approach wherein the pitcher wasn't forced to put so much effort into every pitch. I think raising the mound, increasing the size of the strikezone, or similar rule changes would achieve this by tipping some of the advantage over towards the pitcher. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is enough wiggle-room (mechanically speaking) for a pitcher to conserve energy within the confines of his in-game actions.

See this is where I am just going on gut feeling. I was never able to throw 90 mph. I just get the feeling that if you can sit at 90-93 mph at max effort. You could throw 85 mph very comfortably without making it too obvious with your arm speed. I think if you were able to keep the pitch down in the zone you would be very successful. It would definitely not be an out pitch, but if a pitcher can locate it....it would cause a lot of foul strikes.

[Stotle]

See this is where I am just going on gut feeling. I was never able to throw 90 mph. I just get the feeling that if you can sit at 90-93 mph at max effort. You could throw 85 mph very comfortably without making it too obvious with your arm speed. I think if you were able to keep the pitch down in the zone you would be very successful. It would definitely not be an out pitch, but if a pitcher can locate it....it would cause a lot of foul strikes.

I guess my issue is that a change-up wouldn't be necessary if this were the case, no? I also think there are potential muscle-memory issues that could make command problematic. Doesn't seem realistic, but I don't know -- you could try it yourself. It won't be 93 to 83, but try throwing 90/95% and then throwing 85% but keeping your mechanics as clean as you can. I'm back on a ball field next week, so I'll try it myself (at a HS showcase this weekend taking a look at next year's draft class and helping my buddy with some D-I recruiting, so can't get to it this weekend).

[csgordos]

I think raising the mound, increasing the size of the strikezone, or similar rule changes would achieve this by tipping some of the advantage over towards the pitcher. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is enough wiggle-room (mechanically speaking) for a pitcher to conserve energy within the confines of his in-game actions.

I would be shocked if this happened. Baseball is "boring" to the non-passionate baseball fan. People like 7-5 games instead on 3-2 games. Personally as a past pitcher I like both. I always think about the hockey and soccer analogy in regards to scoring. The analogy would be having hockey play 4 on 4 for more goals thus increasing fan base. People like scoring and the excitement of offensive. A no-hitter or perfect game is an entity all by itself, but the low scoring game will hurt non-traditional fans and I think baseball has passed that by. It would make the games go quicker and put more emphasis on all the other aspects of the game beyond just the power hitting aspect.

To return to the topic. Too many young pitchers start throwing pitches that place stress on the elbows and shoulders at too young on an age before they hit the professional levels. The stress placed on the elbow from a curveball, especially with tight shoulder internal rotation has led the excessive amount of MCL tears of the elbow which leads to Tommy John repair. If pitchers were only able to throw fastballs and change-ups until their bones stopped growing and placing extra stress on the ligaments, then I think we could let younger pitchers throw more than they currently do in the minors. However, because you cannot control the stress on the high school arm, then you have to limit them in the minors. Remember pitching is a extremely unnatural position with the shoulder not meant to go above shoulder height. Every pitcher is potentially one pitch away from a season ending injury. My bet is that Tillman is shut down around 140-160 innings and doesn't see Baltimore unless we are making a push for the playoffs. That is enough rambling for now.

[TyCobb]

I guess my issue is that a change-up wouldn't be necessary if this were the case, no? I also think there are potential muscle-memory issues that could make command problematic. Doesn't seem realistic, but I don't know -- you could try it yourself. It won't be 93 to 83, but try throwing 90/95% and then throwing 85% but keeping your mechanics as clean as you can. I'm back on a ball field next week, so I'll try it myself (at a HS showcase this weekend taking a look at next year's draft class and helping my buddy with some D-I recruiting, so can't get to it this weekend).

A change would not be necessary for most pitchers. Unless you have a Santana circle change where its a plus plus out pitch. Maybe Drungo could answer this but was a Changeup popular to use in the 1960-1970s?

My arm may fall off it I try throwing 10 pitches at 95% effort. And I play tennis a lot so I am not going to risk hurting my shoulder. So I won't be able to try it. Tell me how you do though. Mechanics could be an issue, but it wasn't back in the day right? I would think that is something that won't change. If pitches could repeat their delivers in the 1960s, then I believe they would be able to do it today too.

[DrungoHazewood]

It seems like throwing a soft fastball would just give you the decreased velocity without the deception. I think that can work at low amateur levels, but I just don't see it playing against good HSers, let alone top pros. The reduced arm speed would be too much of a giveaway, I think.

Anyway, I think I understand what you are getting at, and I don't disagree with the general premise that it would be beneficial to try and figure out an approach wherein the pitcher wasn't forced to put so much effort into every pitch. I think raising the mound, increasing the size of the strikezone, or similar rule changes would achieve this by tipping some of the advantage over towards the pitcher. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is enough wiggle-room (mechanically speaking) for a pitcher to conserve energy within the confines of his in-game actions.

Until fairly recently, maybe as late as the 70s or 80s, this was what most pitchers did. At least some of the time. All kinds of pitchers from Christy Mathewson to Jim Palmer have written or talked about some form of "pacing". Everybody knew that a good starter saved his good stuff for the best batters and the key moments of the game.

Pacing was huge in the deadball era, when even a slugger was unlikely to homer so you'd only throw your best stuff occasionally. That's how guys from Walter Johnson's era sometimes threw 400 innings. It got harder after Ruth, but until the 70s and 80s almost every team had a few Julio Cruzes and Rich Dauers who really couldn't hit at all, and you could get out throwing batting practice fastballs.

You'll sometimes hear about Livan Hernandez pacing today, but it's pretty well accpeted that everyone throws at near 100% nearly all the time. You'd have to restructure the game to return to pacing. Expanding to 60 MLB teams would probably do it. Or maybe limiting teams to one relief pitcher a game while deadening the ball.

[DrungoHazewood]

A change would not be necessary for most pitchers. Unless you have a Santana circle change where its a plus plus out pitch. Maybe Drungo could answer this but was a Changeup popular to use in the 1960-1970s?

They've been called different things over time, but changeups have been part of the game since the 1800s.

[TyCobb]

They've been called different things over time, but changeups have been part of the game since the 1800s.

I know changeups have been around for a while, but in the 60s did pitchers generally throw a lot of them like they do today? Or did they rely on changing the speed of their fastball with effort not grip.

[Stotle]

Until fairly recently, maybe as late as the 70s or 80s, this was what most pitchers did. At least some of the time. All kinds of pitchers from Christy Mathewson to Jim Palmer have written or talked about some form of "pacing". Everybody knew that a good starter saved his good stuff for the best batters and the key moments of the game.

Pacing was huge in the deadball era, when even a slugger was unlikely to homer so you'd only throw your best stuff occasionally. That's how guys from Walter Johnson's era sometimes threw 400 innings. It got harder after Ruth, but until the 70s and 80s almost every team had a few Julio Cruzes and Rich Dauers who really couldn't hit at all, and you could get out throwing batting practice fastballs.

You'll sometimes hear about Livan Hernandez pacing today, but it's pretty well accpeted that everyone throws at near 100% nearly all the time. You'd have to restructure the game to return to pacing. Expanding to 60 MLB teams would probably do it. Or maybe limiting teams to one relief pitcher a game while deadening the ball.

Yes, that is what I was getting at. Thanks.

[Stotle]

A change would not be necessary for most pitchers. Unless you have a Santana circle change where its a plus plus out pitch. Maybe Drungo could answer this but was a Changeup popular to use in the 1960-1970s?

My arm may fall off it I try throwing 10 pitches at 95% effort. And I play tennis a lot so I am not going to risk hurting my shoulder. So I won't be able to try it. Tell me how you do though. Mechanics could be an issue, but it wasn't back in the day right? I would think that is something that won't change. If pitches could repeat their delivers in the 1960s, then I believe they would be able to do it today too.

I think it ties into the improved strength of both hitters and lineups, in general. I'd be happy to let you know what I think next week (post draft ).