Dinner with Flanny

[helloharv]

I also was lucky enough to go to the dinner. I definitely want to thank the Flanagan's for taking the time to meet with us and thank Helloharv for setting everything up, it was an awesome experience.

One thing that i haven't seen the others who got to go mention, is that they said that almost all of the players and management / front office types read the boards. John and Tony have mentioned that we'd be surprised by how much attention the board gets, but that really was quite amazing to see how much exposure the boards get.

Everyone else has done a good job of summarizing the topics we talked about, it really was a very interesting night.

Thats all you have to say :002_stongue: I am glad you had a great time.It was a pleasure meeting you.

[twoBshorty]

In regards to the payroll, all I can say is, I'll believe it when I see it. There is reason to be encouraged, as it's undeniable that other regional sports networks have enabled their teams to put a lot more money into the product on the field, but the FO must forgive my skepticism after 8 years of empty promises.

Re: BJ Ryan, I am in complete agreement with the point about talent evaluation. We had a number of years to watch this guy. Now, players do change, but if they couldn't figure out a course of action in that amount of time, well, I don't know what to say. It's not their fault if Ryan wanted to run them right up into free agency to test the waters, as that's his right and it certainly worked out well for him, but it appears things were mishandled. I'm not mourning the loss of Ryan, as Ray seems to be doing a perfectly nice job, but nobody should ever turn down having 2 good relievers as opposed to 1, no matter what their roles are.

And, Witchy, in reference to this:

I mean – does Billy Beane, John Schuerholz, Brian Cashman, or Theo Epstein go out to dinner with fans? If they do, I haven’t heard about it.

Yes, actually, Theo Epstein did this winter. . .and two crazy people paid a combined $32,100 for it! (ESPN link)

I am assuming this didn't cost you anything like that. . .

[rolliefingers]

I also was lucky enough to go to the dinner. I definitely want to thank the Flanagan's for taking the time to meet with us and thank Helloharv for setting everything up, it was an awesome experience.

One thing that i haven't seen the others who got to go mention, is that they said that almost all of the players and management / front office types read the boards. John and Tony have mentioned that we'd be surprised by how much attention the board gets, but that really was quite amazing to see how much exposure the boards get.

Everyone else has done a good job of summarizing the topics we talked about, it really was a very interesting night.

That's interesting about the players; for whatever reason I never thought they would be into checking out message boards about their own team. But, I guess guys read the papers and Roch's blog, so why wouldn't they read us as well?

I wonder what they think of our opinions and constant smack-talking. :002_sbiggrin:

[Gentile]

I wonder what they think of our opinions and constant smack-talking. :002_sbiggrin:

I wouldn't be surprised if they were driving around New Market in their off-hours, looking for one particular poster.:002_sbiggrin:

I'm really interested in whether the Mora contract was discussed by our group of reps.

[Mackus]

Re: BJ Ryan, I am in complete agreement with the point about talent evaluation. We had a number of years to watch this guy. Now, players do change, but if they couldn't figure out a course of action in that amount of time, well, I don't know what to say. It's not their fault if Ryan wanted to run them right up into free agency to test the waters, as that's his right and it certainly worked out well for him, but it appears things were mishandled. I'm not mourning the loss of Ryan, as Ray seems to be doing a perfectly nice job, but nobody should ever turn down having 2 good relievers as opposed to 1, no matter what their roles are.

I don't know where this thing about evaluating Ryan came from. What Flanny said was that the impression he got from BJ was that he was going to "make his run at a pot of gold". He said they tried working something out with BJ and his agent where if he struggled as a closer, he'd get paid as a top setup man and if he did well, he'd get paid as a top closer, but they just couldn't figure out a way to get it done since you can't base incentives on performance (like saves, holds, etc).

I got the impression that the 3/$15M number that gets thrown around here a lot was never a real possibility and that if it was, they (the O's) would have jumped at it.

[Mackus]

I'm really interested in whether the Mora contract was discussed by our group of reps.

It was, but we were politely asked to not discuss details on the boards.

[Mashed Potatoes]

All one needs to do is look at the bottom of an SG post (they're omnipresent) to view this dinner with the right attitude. Are these guys genuinely nice, and well intentioned? Absolutely. Do they share our passion for putting a winning product on the field? Absolutely. Was this effort by them above and beyond the call of duty? Double absolutely.

But the bottom line is no matter what words come out of their mouths, as fans we have every right to doubt their competency. 8 losing seasons of unfulfilled promises! When the right moves start being made that indicate a clear direction, then Angelos/Flanny/Duquette will regain my confidence and hope.

Note, I'm not the typical pessimist that claims to be a "fan" while not actually following the team anymore. I live and die with every inning of every game.

[rolliefingers]

I don't know where this thing about evaluating Ryan came from. What Flanny said was that the impression he got from BJ was that he was going to "make his run at a pot of gold". He said they tried working something out with BJ and his agent where if he struggled as a closer, he'd get paid as a top setup man and if he did well, he'd get paid as a top closer, but they just couldn't figure out a way to get it done since you can't base incentives on performance (like saves, holds, etc).

I got the impression that the 3/$15M number that gets thrown around here a lot was never a real possibility and that if it was, they (the O's) would have jumped at it.

Depends on what the timeline is. Was BJ hell-bent on free agency by the middle of 2004? If so, there's not much we could have done about that.

But we've heard many times in the past that, as late as Spring Training 2005, he wanted an extension, but we were not convinced that he was closer material, and thus were not going to pay him "closer money". I certainly wouldn't give him his current contract, but did the FO have THAT little faith in his abilities? Or are you saying that this info is inaccurate?

And regardless of what happened with the contract, why would we keep him at the deadline last year? That was just so dumb, I still have trouble believing it happened.

[keysersose]

One general question I hope somebody in the front office (any front office) answers:

What is you philosophy in trading prospects for major league talent?

On the Dan Patrick Show this afternoon, Joe Morgan, with whom I usually disagree, said that as a general rule you trade prospects for proven talent. This was said in reference to the Mets trading prospect Lastings Milledge for Barry Zito.

The Orioles have often held onto prospects too long. (Alex Ochoa, Manny Alexander, Jefferey Hammonds).

[Mackus]

All one needs to do is look at the bottom of an SG post (they're omnipresent) to view this dinner with the right attitude. Are these guys genuinely nice, and well intentioned? Absolutely. Do they share our passion for putting a winning product on the field? Absolutely. Was this effort by them above and beyond the call of duty? Double absolutely.

But the bottom line is no matter what words come out of their mouths, as fans we have every right to doubt their competency. 8 losing seasons of unfulfilled promises! When the right moves start being made that indicate a clear direction, then Angelos/Flanny/Duquette will regain my confidence and hope.

Note, I'm not the typical pessimist that claims to be a "fan" while not actually following the team anymore. I live and die with every inning of every game.

I agree with this. The results are the bottom line, but some fans definitely go too far in blaming the lack of results on a lack of effort, desire to win, or a desire by PA to make money.

One of the things that was mentioned, was that they don't mind the criticisms of specific moves so much, but the people that question their work ethic or desire to bring a winner to Baltimore is particularly hurtful and frustrating. They way they described Flanagan's work day certainly shows that its a 24/7 type of job and there defintiely is no downtime or vacation time. Even 2-3 times throughout the dinner Mike had to get up to take a phone call.

[Witchy_Chick]

Sorry for the delay peeps. On frequent occasions I, regettably, have to work while I'm at work. My notes are forthcoming. I hope you all enjoy the report. Baroquen kinda stole some of my thunder about "being more polite posters." But, that's ok.

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Due to seating configuration, I had a hard time hearing Flanny and “the guys” talking baseball. I was more interactive with Mrs. Flanny (I hope Alex doesn’t mind that nickname; I get such a kick out of it ) and ______ (I can’t remember the woman’s name, but she is a good friend to the Flanagan family). It was interesting to talk to Mrs. Flanagan and get a home life perspective. We often look at players and the FO (the generalized FO) as pieces of the organization, rather than individuals with lives outside of baseball. To wit, Alex noted Mike’s demanding schedule (usually in the office around 6am and frequently doesn’t get home ‘til 11pm) and that he is on-call 24/7 (many holidays have been interrupted with phone calls from the office). Furthermore, he has to travel out of town at a moment’s notice (see: Tejada off-season trade “demand”) and sometimes risks life and limb (during the Tejada visit, he and Jim Duquette had an “interesting” helicopter ride from Miggy’s hometown to the Dominican WBC game).

Somewhat along with this theme - many players, FO personnel, and their families read the message boards, including this one. My opinion is the anonymity factor of a message board affords posters to be much more free flowing with their vitriol than they would be (I think) in a face-to-face setting. It bears repeating that these players and FO personnel (and their families) are people too. To disagree with moves, etc is one thing, but to call someone stupid or an idiot or worthless is just plain rude. I’m sure I have been guilty of this in the past. In the future, however, I will try my best to be more polite.

Anyway - onto the good stuff. Some of this stuff is abbreviated or just quick thoughts. As responses are posted, I’m sure my memory will be further jogged and I will have more to add.

• Mrs. Flanagan was armed to the teeth with articles/data on team values, operating incomes, etc. She literally had a binder’s worth of data that she provided for each of us. It’ll take me a month to go through all that stuff. I’m not sure I will be able to decipher some of it. I detested Accounting in college and passed by the skin of my teeth. But I’ll do my best.
• Player costs: not just salary, but insurance policy also. Insuring the contract/player is not factored into the annual salary/payroll figures, but sometimes it is a significant amount. I believe it was mentioned that one player (not signed) would’ve cost an additional $2m/year in insurance (above and beyond a multi-million dollar annual salary). Another thing potentially working against us is potential endorsement revenue. A FA or guy on the trade block would much rather go to a big-market because they can sign lucrative endorsement contracts also.
  
• Flanny firmly believes Konerko was sincere in wanting to come here. Konerko did what was best for his family. They wined and dined him - in Arizona. That struck me as a bit odd - wouldn’t you want to bring him to Baltimore and show him the sights? /shrug
  
• Re: FA signings/trades - We all tend to look at this stuff from a strictly stats/fantasy league/money level. Keeping with my theme of “players are people too” - they have quirks and family/background issues much like us “regular folk” have. That human aspect tends to get lost in the shuffle. To wit, Vladdy wanting to go to a city with a predominantly Hispanic population, or some player not signing because of, what I like to call….ahem…..“soap opera issues.”
  
• While some improvements to the club are obvious (i.e. the improved farm system), others are more “behind the scenes.” For example, the standardization of scouting report ratings. Cited old scouting reports on Pedro where one scout rated him as “good” and another as “very good” - with no explanation or clarification of “good” and “very good.” I got the impression those former report ratings were somewhat subjective and varied wildly from scout to scout. The current scouting reports are standardized, so all the scouts are working off of the same page. Me, personally, I would like to hear some more of the “behind the scenes” changes. They may not necessarily be barnburner moves/improvements, but they do show that the FO is doing something. I think Flanny mentioned this during the WBAL pre-season interview -- about "fixing the wiring behind the wall."
  
• Re: DCab and the high BBs early on - Flanny said DCab was a hard worker. Reminded us that he’s a guy who didn’t pick up a baseball until high school. He’s still learning the finer points - fielding his position, covering 1B; those things aren’t second nature to DCab like they would be to a guy who's played all his life.
  
• Re: Markakis - Flanny said he had Markakis in his office the other day (I immediately pictured a student being summoned to the principal’s office ). Nick told Flanny “You know - I always start out slow.” Flanny’s humorous and good-natured response “You know it’s May now, right?” He also said Earl gave his stamp of approval on Markakis. Earl came out to more ST games this year than in the past - specifically to see Nick.
  
• Flanny told some hilarious stories of the old days. The Dempsey-Dove bar story (short version: Dempsey neglected to wait a bit for his completely frozen Dove bar to thaw and got it stuck to his tongue. The ensuing drama/comedy almost had me in tears) and Earl having a rookie Flanny warm up early on during a Palmer start for “incentive” for Palmer to pitch better (I can only imagine Cakes’ reaction).
  
• Re: upcoming draft - they’ll take the best talent available. Not necessarily targeting infield position players. Draft is somewhat thin this year.
  
• When asked about the toughest hitter (and easiest out), Flanny said he had been looking up some old splits the other day. Grover was 3 for 38 (or something) against him. Some guy I had never heard of (I think he said Bob Randall?) absolutely owned him. Something like 12 for 28.
  

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Now, I have to catch up with the rest of this thread.

Witchy

[nadecir]

I agree with this. The results are the bottom line, but some fans definitely go too far in blaming the lack of results on a lack of effort, desire to win, or a desire by PA to make money.

I don't think any one questions the Orioles' front office desire to win. And I don't think many people question their lack of effort.

Now I do think it is legitimate to question whether Angelos values making money more than winning. He has had plenty of chances to increase the Orioles payroll in order to make the team better. He refuses to spend seemingly small amounts of money that are needed to complete trades. This reluctance to spend money comes when the best source we have (Forbes) says the Orioles are making money.

Why doesn't Angelos spend more if he values winning more than making money?

[NJOriolesFan]

Where are you getting the 100 million payroll or having 50 million to spend next year???? Mike never said that.

You said Mike said the payroll could go up $30 million this offseason. We are at $70 million now. $30 + $70 = $100.

So the payroll could go up to $100 million.

We have approximately $50 million on contract for next year, assuming a few things.

That is where I got my numbers. Did Mike mean something else?

[Witchy_Chick]

Witchy sure takes her time making a cup of coffee...

I'm picturing her running around the mountains of Columbia following goat droppings asking the locals, "...'Scuse me! Have you seen Juan Valdez? I have got to get a cup of coffee."

hahahhahahaa Scottie -- that sounds eerily similar to Flanny's story of visiting Miggy in the Dominican this off-season.

And, Witchy, in reference to this:

Originally Posted by Witchy Chick

I mean – does Billy Beane, John Schuerholz, Brian Cashman, or Theo Epstein go out to dinner with fans? If they do, I haven’t heard about it.

Yes, actually, Theo Epstein did this winter. . .and two crazy people paid a combined $32,100 for it! (ESPN link)

I am assuming this didn't cost you anything like that. . .

Uhhhh, no. Our meals and beverages were paid for by the Flanagans (presumably). We also received some lovely parting gifts -- an Orioles coffee mug, and (my favorite) the Orioles blanket. That was the give-away for the first night game this year. I'm so jazzed about getting that blanket. But, then again -- I'm a huge dork anyway about all things Orioles-related.

I don't think any one questions the Orioles' front office desire to win. And I don't think many people question their lack of effort.

Now I do think it is legitimate to question whether Angelos values making money more than winning. He has had plenty of chances to increase the Orioles payroll in order to make the team better. He refuses to spend seemingly small amounts of money that are needed to complete trades. This reluctance to spend money comes when the best source we have (Forbes) says the Orioles are making money.

Why doesn't Angelos spend more if he values winning more than making money?

This issue was the lead topic of conversation. Mrs. Flanagan talked a lot of Accounting talk (which is sooooo beyond me) -- she specifically mentioned the debt-income ratio rule (I think that's what it's called) that Selig (IIRC) implemented around the timeframe that Tampa Bay was in jeopardy of not making payroll. She mentioned that Angelos can't provide his own money. I am completely in the dark as to why he can't provide his own money. Like I said, I have to go through all these materials she provided us. And, if there are any accountants in the house -- I may be PMing you to help me decipher this stuff.

Witchy

[Frobby]

But the bottom line is no matter what words come out of their mouths, as fans we have every right to doubt their competency. 8 losing seasons of unfulfilled promises! When the right moves start being made that indicate a clear direction, then Angelos/Flanny/Duquette will regain my confidence and hope.

In fairness, the most you can lay at Flanagan's feet is the last 3 years.

Year 1: Major league team improved by 4 games, minor league system improved by 40+ games.

Year 2: Major league team improved by 7 games, minor league system declined by about 15-20 games.

Year 3: Major league team declined by 4 games, minor league system improved by about 75 games to reach .500.

That progress may not be fast enough or consistent enough to satisfy everyone, and I'm not saying it completely satisfies me, either. Certainly if this year's team finishes under .500 I will be dissatisfied. But I'm not going to blame Flanagan for not being able to fix a completely messed up organization within 3 years. Nor am I going to blame him for not going for the quick fix of spending a ton of money on free agents.

I feel the front office has been too reactive and conservative at times, but I am still willing to be patient a while longer.