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Is the front office doing enough to close the gap on NY and Boston?


bigbird

Are we getting closer in the standings to NY and Boston.  

169 members have voted

  1. 1. Are we getting closer in the standings to NY and Boston.

    • Yes we are closing the gap with NY and Boston
      137
    • No we're not closing the gap
      32


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I do think Epstein is one of the smartest GMs in baseball. Cash has got the most money, so it's tough to judge his acumen because he has such latitude to spend unwisely.

When the Nats came along, I was really hoping Epstein would be lured away to DC. It would be fascinating to see Theo start from scratch with a much more limited budget.

There is no question that Epstein is a very good, young GM. However, he is also aided significantly by a huge payroll, which allows his actions, some of which have been misses or questionable, to be overlooked. How many teams can afford to:

- pay Matt Clement $10 million per year,

- pay a mediocre SS (Lugo) $9 million per year,

- pay $14 million per year to a part time right fielder (J.D. Drew),

- pay $50 million just to get the rights to bid on a pitcher (Dice K), or

- pay a 42 year old pitcher coming off injury (Smoltz) $14 for half a year of service?

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So, 83% of the board thinks one way, but we're all wrong in your eyes. mmm-hmmm

Boston is a great team and Theo has done an outstanding job, but they're not without concern. They have four players near the end of their career or trending down in important positions - Ortiz, Varitek, Lowell, and Drew. They've got no question marks at another position - SS - since Lowrie's injury is worrisome and his production hadn't been real great even before the injury. I'd say their positional concerns are at least as great as our over the next five years and probably higher. I'd put our young pitching against anybody in the game.

Boston is better than us now. They are likely to be better than us for the next couple seasons. However, the gap has been narrowed and the long term looks as good as can be expected when there is a 60 million plus differential in payroll capability.

I agree that Boston will come down, but that's not a result of what AM has done, which is what the question asked.

I agree that the team is in better shape, but in terms of measurable talent, I just don't see how the Orioles are any closer to competing than they were last year. This is reflected in the standings.

The Orioles may be in the process of closing the gap, but young talent is no better than veteran talent in the present tense, if both produce at the same level. It's just younger. This, of course, is important in terms of salary, but if the team isn't winning when the talent is cheap, I don't see how it makes a difference.

One way we'll know is how AM manages all this young talent when it comes to arbitration and free agency, and if the talent stays healthy and becomes as good as hyped. If it doesn't, then the state of the Orioles as of now is no, they have not closed the gap. I guess, I don't see how this question can be answered except in reflection. We'd like to think he's closing the gap, but it can only be known after the fact.

Overall, though, the question is loaded and not really appropriate. AM's done a good job, though I would have liked him to sign Teixeira.

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There is no question that Epstein is a very good, young GM. However, he is also aided significantly by a huge payroll, which allows his actions, some of which have been misses or questionable, to be overlooked. How many teams can afford to:

- pay Matt Clement $10 million,

- pay a mediocre SS (Lugo) $9 million,

- pay $14 million to a part time right fielder (J.D. Drew),

- pay $50 million just to get the rights to bid on a pitcher (Dice K), or

- pay a 42 year old pitcher coming off injury (Smoltz) $14 million for half a year of service?

There's no reason we can't ramp up our payroll beyond $100 million. The Red Sox right now have a $122 million dollar payroll. The difference is only because the Orioles chose to have it that way IMO.

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Obviously the answer is yes.

If you don't think we're closer now than we have been since 1998, you aren't paying attention and/or don't know what you're looking at.

There's definitely a lot of work that still needs to be done, but we clearly have the right type of approach in place.

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Obviously the answer is yes.

If you don't think we're closer now than we have been since 1998, you aren't paying attention and/or don't know what you're looking at.

There's definitely a lot of work that still needs to be done, but we clearly have the right type of approach in place.

The approach may seem correct, but the jury is out, if the plan will actually succeed. So far in the standings, we've regressed against Boston and the Yankees since MacPhail has taken charge. And the Red Sox and Yankees have increased their talent level at the ML level while the Orioles have basically treaded water since the Bedard trade.

The proof is going to be there when we start beating the Yankees and Red Sox on a routine basis, or at least trade wins and losses with them. Until you have that proof, you can't say that the gap has closed.

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Obviously the answer is yes.

If you don't think we're closer now than we have been since 1998, you aren't paying attention and/or don't know what you're looking at.

There's definitely a lot of work that still needs to be done, but we clearly have the right type of approach in place.

Isn't this answering a different question, though?

Being in a better position is different than closing the talent gap. I don't see how the Orioles are any more talented than they were last year, or in 2005, or in 1997.

I agree that they are in a better position, but that's due to payroll flexibility, and smarter spending (potentially, not actually - but not AMs fault), not the actual talent on the field. The talent is young and almost entirely unproven (or regressing).

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With all due respect, isn't focusing on New York and Boston and trying to match them partly what got us into the mess we are in? Lest we forget the days when the Orioles did spend money and got next to nothing in return, when adding a new veteran at the expense of the well-being and betterment of the team accomplished next to nothing. Sitting around and focusing on what other teams are doing isn't a smart approach, it means no guarantee for success, and it takes the focus off of what must actually be the focus, yourself and your operations. The Orioles can only control and focus on themselves. Whether the moves they make or the decisions they make are successful we aren't going to know for several years. But if they are sitting around and looking at things only in the perspective of we have to catch the Yankees or Red Soxs or match them, then I'm quite certain this organization will continue on the road to nothing it has been on over a decade.

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I certainly don't want to take a page out of the OldFan book and say "end of story". Every good post on this board is related to the question, "Are we getting better?"

But it's laughable that so many act as though significant improvement (and by that I mean contending for the wild card at a minimum) is an easy process or that there's a quick fix.

But I'm not convinced that the increments at which we've improved are going to translate into a wildcard contention unless we make some very bold expensive moves, and soon. Signing Weiters, and re-signing Nick and B-Rob made sense at reasonable costs but were not bold moves.

The Bedard trade was pretty bold however, I'll give him that.

I agree with almost all of your post. But I do not think there is a quick fix. I do not post much but have frequently said, it took many years to screw this franchise up and it will not be fixed in a year or two because we have a HUGE hole or gap to close.

I think one of the reasons people have a hard time measuring progress (except for the standings) is having realistic expectations given the size of the gap. Make no mistake. MY goal is winning the World Series. But incremental steps must be realized first. Two of the important steps is a winning season and competing for a wild card. Are we closer to that? I think we are. Are we doing it with less money? Yes, but I do not think currently that is relevant. We are losing becuase we have younger talent that is not good enough today. We are not losing with high paid older players that are not good enough and will be here to prove it for 5 more years.

There is much further to go and next year a winning season should be attainable. But even that will require much to go right. I call that progress. And it is a much better position to be getting closer with young controllable talent. We have not been here in a long long time.

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I don't see how the Orioles are any more talented than they were last year, or in 2005, or in 1997.
Well no offense, than you aren't looking at it properly. We're immensely more talented than in 2005.

Not than in 1997, though. Of course, we were the best team on the planet in 1997 so that's not exactly a relevant comparison, although it is a nice goal to shoot for.

Not all of our talent is in Baltimore yet, but we've got All-Star caliber or at least very well above average players at all 3 OF positions, catcher and 2B. We can fill the rest of the positions with just about average talent and be a competitive offense. And obviously we've got the 3 big guys in terms of pitching still in the minors as well as a couple (Hernandez, Bergesen) already here.

We are closer to Boston and New York than we have been since we started losing. And for the first time are close to a point where we should be able to be a good team for a long time, not just hope everything goes 100% according to plan and then be an 85-90 win team like seemed to be the plan under Beattie, Flanagan, and Duquette.

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We were 9-9 against NYY in 2007 so I guess that means we were even with them based on your random criteria. :rolleyes:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings/grid?season=2007

MacPhail took charge in June 2007 and you can say he really didn't start doing anything until that next offseason as it took him awhile to get up to speed with the club. Still 15-21 isn't that spectacular and the Orioles got destroyed by Boston and the Yankees down the stretch.

The Orioles went a combined 13-24 against them in 2008 and are 4-12 against them this season.

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Duck, my point just went flying right over your head.

I'll try again:

A team's record against another team in one particular year doesn't necessarily have any correlation at all to their respective talent levels.

In other words, your stated criteria is poorly formed.

I'm saying since MacPhail has been here, there has been no improvement in our efforts against Boston or NY at the ML level, and despite his plan being deemed as being successful, we have yet to see evidence to say that it is.

We've improved at some levels, but against Boston and NYY we have yet to see that improvement so stating that his plan will be successful in closing the gap or has been successful is pure conjecture at this point.

We've thrown away two and a half seasons now waiting for this plan to form. When do we say his plan didn't work? How long must we be patient and continue to be a doormat for the beasts of the AL East before we become one ourselves?

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I'm saying since MacPhail has been here, there has been no improvement in our efforts against Boston or NY at the ML level, and despite his plan being deemed as being successful, we have yet to see evidence to say that it is.

We've improved at some levels, but against Boston and NYY we have yet to see that improvement so stating that his plan will be successful in closing the gap or has been successful is pure conjecture at this point.

We've thrown away two and a half seasons now waiting for this plan to form. When do we say his plan didn't work? How long must we be patient and continue to be a doormat for the beasts of the AL East before we become one ourselves?

Seriously....bigger picture!!

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If you can't see that our organization has improved immeasurably over the past two years then quite frankly, I don't know what anyone can say to you.
We using eyeballs for our criteria, or AL East standings? Just asking...

What a great thread. 5 stars.

I voted yes, but I vote with my gut not with my brain.

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I'm saying since MacPhail has been here, there has been no improvement in our efforts against Boston or NY at the ML level, and despite his plan being deemed as being successful, we have yet to see evidence to say that it is.

We've improved at some levels, but against Boston and NYY we have yet to see that improvement so stating that his plan will be successful in closing the gap or has been successful is pure conjecture at this point.

Ok

I really want to try to understand where you are coming from. Since AM arrived he traded a pitcher who has got what 13 wins in two years and for that received our last two ALL-Stars, and our #1 pitching prospect. He traded our SS and got a haul of 5 more players who have added to our overall talent.

Honestly, if he did nothing outside of trading Bedard and Miggy, he would still have an arguement for success. --- I wouldn't make it, but it could be made.

You are a passionate fan, I get that and appreciate it. But NO PROGRESS? Specifically no improvement in our efforts against NY and Bos? Please tell me what should have happened over the last two years that would have resulted in progress. Since we have made none, it should be relatively easy for you to fill me in on what we should have done differently over the last two years.

I really would appreciate reading your rationale. If you don't like AM, or the manager, fine. But I do not think those changes alone are going to convince me but I'm willing to listen....

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