Sun: A big relief for Salazar

[Dipper9]

Too bad no one is overrating Pie at all.

Maybe not overating, but I seem to recall someone wanting to bench Reimold, Huff, and Scott at routine intervals to make sure that Pie gets his fair share of at bats. Who could that have been? :scratchchinhmm: Think Dippy think.

[El Gordo]

Too bad no one is overrating Pie at all.

I think no one is overrating Pie because the assumption is, that he isn't going anywhere.

[Singleton]

Drungo makes great points. We're all rooting for Salazar and hope his play continues but to suggest he's the next David Ortiz is pretty ridiculous. By the time Ortiz was 31, he'd already hit over 200 MLB homers. And please don't say this is about opportunity. Nobody thinks that Salazar has Ortiz like power.

Any GM in baseball could have had Salazar for a claim this past offseason and all of them passed which is a pretty strong indication that they weren't overwhelmed by what he had done in the minors or in his brief trial with the O's last year.

Maybe every GM in baseball is an idiot. He's had a good half season -- most of it still in the minors.

If any GM in baseball values Oscar the way he is valued here, I hope he calls AM soon. We could use some more talent that will be able to make significant contributions when the team is really ready to contend.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe not overating, but I seem to recall someone wanting to bench Reimold, Huff, and Scott at routine intervals to make sure that Pie gets his fair share of at bats. Who could that have been? :scratchchinhmm: Think Dippy think.

What's so controversial about that? I'd applaud lustily (maybe even shout out a good Huzzah!) if Trembley played Pie instead of Reimold in left against some right-handers, and mixed up the lineup enough to get him in the lineup instead of Huff or Scott 4, 5, 6 times a month. The way Huff's been playing Pie wouldn't even have to post a .700 OPS to be more of an asset.

[Sanfran327]

Ortiz was a guy who could hit 20 HR's but couldn't play any position in the field, so Minnesota let him go. He was younger than Oscar but his numbers were similar. You don't know if you don't give him a shot. I see a potentially exceptional hitter. Certainly better than Montenez. And the thing that makes him especially valuable is that he is a RH bat. We need a few of those who can hit. The jury is out on Reimold IMO, Mora wll be gone, Wiggy is an undisciplined hitter who should only face lefties. We need more than just Wieters and Jones, assuming they are the real thing.

I'm a little late on this argument, but don't forget - Manny Ramirez created David Ortiz. Big Papi was a good enough hitter, but he became lethal with Manny hitting behind him. If we have a hitter as good as Manny in our lineup to protect Oscar, then I can buy into your assessment. However, even if one of our young guys develops into even 80% of Manny, there's no way Oscar Salazar is going to hit in front of him in our lineup.

[El Gordo]

I'm a little late on this argument, but don't forget - Manny Ramirez created David Ortiz. Big Papi was a good enough hitter, but he became lethal with Manny hitting behind him. If we have a hitter as good as Manny in our lineup to protect Oscar, then I can buy into your assessment. However, even if one of our young guys develops into even 80% of Manny, there's no way Oscar Salazar is going to hit in front of him in our lineup.

I'm not saying that Oscar is as good as Ortiz. I am saying that like the Twins uderrated his potential as a bat, because he couldn't field, so could the O's be doing the same thing. Obviously if the Twins thought he could hit 57 HR's they wouldn't have released him. And I don't buy the it was all Manny baloney either. Ortiz would have put up very good numbers without Manny.

[DrungoHazewood]

Your approach in cases like this, as I understand it, is to apply an equal weighting over the entire lifetime of minor league ABs that a player has amassed in projecting future performance.

Sorry, I didn't catch this before, and if it wasn't clear from my other posts that's pretty much 100% wrong. More recent performances should be weighted more, of course. But that doesn't change any of my other points about the mirage of gains from repeating levels, or the inevitability of age-related decline in one's 30s.

[Tony-OH]

What kind of power do you need to be a full-time DH? Edgar Martinez had one year out of eighteen where he hit for more than thirty home runs and I'd take him on my team. Harold Baines' career-high for a season is twenty-nine homers.

Funny, although Salazar will never walk anywhere near the rate of Edgar MArtinez, Martinez was the first guy that popped into my head when I was trying to figure out what kind of player he could become if given a fulltime job. After looking at Martinez's record, he certainly had a lot of success after the age of 31 but he walked a ton more and had success in the major leagues at a younger age.

The Benny Ayala comp still sticks though.

[Sports Guy]

What's so controversial about that? I'd applaud lustily (maybe even shout out a good Huzzah!) if Trembley played Pie instead of Reimold in left against some right-handers, and mixed up the lineup enough to get him in the lineup instead of Huff or Scott 4, 5, 6 times a month. The way Huff's been playing Pie wouldn't even have to post a .700 OPS to be more of an asset.

Its difficult being logical to those who can't grasp it.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm a little late on this argument, but don't forget - Manny Ramirez created David Ortiz. Big Papi was a good enough hitter, but he became lethal with Manny hitting behind him. If we have a hitter as good as Manny in our lineup to protect Oscar, then I can buy into your assessment. However, even if one of our young guys develops into even 80% of Manny, there's no way Oscar Salazar is going to hit in front of him in our lineup.

Well, that's strange. Because the first year Ortiz was in Boston he hit 5th. Put up an OPS 130 points higher than at any other point in his career up to then, but was batting behind Manny. Yep, huge step change in performance... but it had nothing to do with batting in front of Manny.

Then in 2004 he batted in front of Manny for about 2/3rds of the year, but then in August they flopped them, batting Manny in front of Ortiz. And guess what? He hit better in the 2nd half than the first half by about 70 points of OPS. I suppose you could argue that hitting in front of Manny prepared him for the rigors of not batting in front of Manny...

Then in 2005 Ortiz started the year behind Manny, then they again flopped, and there's really no dividing line in Ortiz' performance. He was pretty good the whole time.

Seems to me batting order protection for Ortiz is pretty much the same as for anyone else - a mirage.

[Dipper9]

Its difficult being logical to those who can't grasp it.

What is difficult to understand is how some posters want Pie to play at the expense of the STARTERS on this team, but yet are willing to ship out Salazar (who has hit whenever he's been given the opportunity) with a dismissal such as "he's a dime a dozen player who can easily be replaced."

To drungo's point, Pie should get the same amount of PT as Zaun does. If that's 2 games a week, so be it. I have no issue with this, and I think he would thrive in that role. Let him play once or twice a week in LF against tough right handed pitchers. What I do not get behind is benching Scott or Huff for Pie.

[Tx Oriole]

What is difficult to understand is how some posters want Pie to play at the expense of the STARTERS on this team, but yet are willing to ship out Salazar (who has hit whenever he's been given the opportunity) with a dismissal such as "he's a dime a dozen player who can easily be replaced."

To drungo's point, Pie should get the same amount of PT as Zaun does. If that's 2 games a week, so be it. I have no issue with this, and I think he would thrive in that role. Let him play once or twice a week in LF against tough right handed pitchers. What I do not get behind is benching Scott or Huff for Pie.

Nope you can't bench Scotty or Huff, but needs some PT. I don't want them to bench Reimold either. Just some PT for Pie 2 or 3 times a week.

[DrungoHazewood]

What is difficult to understand is how some posters want Pie to play at the expense of the STARTERS on this team, but yet are willing to ship out Salazar (who has hit whenever he's been given the opportunity) with a dismissal such as "he's a dime a dozen player who can easily be replaced."

To drungo's point, Pie should get the same amount of PT as Zaun does. If that's 2 games a week, so be it. I have no issue with this, and I think he would thrive in that role. Let him play once or twice a week in LF against tough right handed pitchers. What I do not get behind is benching Scott or Huff for Pie.

Both Pie and Salazar are fringy players who currently aren't huge assets, nor would it be difficult to replace their current performance. The difference is that the likely path into the future is that Pie will keep or improve on his value, while Salazar will lose his.

It's not stretching the truth to say that the vast majority of 31-year-olds decline and the majority of 24-year-olds improve. So my thinking is that developing teams should have a preference for players who are most likely to develop.

[sfosfan]

I'm sure Oscar is a nice guy and he is certainly a capable bench player but when all is done and said he is cannon fodder and if he is released then he has served his purpose and deserves nothing more than a "job well done". He will have no problem finding work elsewhere and we will have no problem replacing him.

Wow, who pee'd on your cornflakes this morning?

Yep, he sure served his purpose alright. Hitting .419 with a couple of homers in 31 bats. That served us well. Too bad everybody esle is hitting .420, so we have no more use for a guy like this. :rolleyestf:

Good luck Oscar, we'll sure miss you!

Go O's!

sfosfan

[Dipper9]

Both Pie and Salazar are fringy players who currently aren't huge assets, nor would it be difficult to replace their current performance. The difference is that the likely path into the future is that Pie will keep or improve on his value, while Salazar will lose his.

It's not stretching the truth to say that the vast majority of 31-year-olds decline and the majority of 24-year-olds improve. So my thinking is that developing teams should have a preference for players who are most likely to develop.

I'll play along. Lets consider that you and SG's prediction on Pie pays off, and he in fact IS an everyday caliber player. We already have 4 everyday caliber outfielders in Reimold, Jones, Kakes, and Scott. Instead of finding creative ways to get PT for all these guys, wouldn't it make more sense to try to trade Pie for a position of need?