Spoone Interview

[IceColdIceeIce]

Does anyone know how similar Spoone's injury was to Patton's? I know they both had surgery to repair their labrums. Other than that, I am pretty ignorant.

[allstar1579]

Does anyone know how similar Spoone's injury was to Patton's? I know they both had surgery to repair their labrums. Other than that, I am pretty ignorant.

For some reason I thought one was a SLAP tear, and one wasn't.

[csgordos]

The real issue is that we don't know really what the cause of arm breakdown is - individuals who have arm injuries may have high-stress mechanics. But there's no way to pin down whether or not those high stress mechanics caused the problem, or whether even lower-stress mechanics may.

In principal I agree with your statement, but some injuries have been studied and identified. GIRD (poor IR of the shoulder) leads to increased stress on the MCL of the elbow. The studies have shown that by promoting internal rotation stretching of the shoulder limits MCL strain and thus minimizing the chance of needing Tommy John surgery. That is the first example I can think of off the top of my head. Sorry I have to research the MD who published the study. Also (not just related to pitchers) by fixing a protracted shoulder posture position the stress can be removed off the rotator cuff (specifically the SS muscle) thus limiting impingement and tears. This is accomplished by addressing a condition known as SICK (scapula infera coracoid dyskinesis) scapular dysfunction. Dr. Craig Morgan, MD and Phillip Donley PT, ATC developed exercises to work on this condition to reduce the stress on the RTC and shoulder. They note that " Forward head and shoulders are key factors in the creation of shoulder problems, pay particular attention to your head and neck posture with each exercise to develop improved posture." Chris

[csgordos]

For some reason I thought one was a SLAP tear, and one wasn't.

Spoone said his was a slap tear in the interview. Not sure what Patton's was or if there are degrees of severity to a slap tear. I had the impression that Spoone's tear wasn't as bad as Patton's but nothing more than an impression.

SLAP stands for Superior Labrum Anterior to Posterior tear. There are degrees of severity similar to degrees of meniscal tears in the knee.

[Lucky Jim]

In principal I agree with your statement, but some injuries have been studied and identified. GIRD (poor IR of the shoulder) leads to increased stress on the MCL of the elbow. The studies have shown that by promoting internal rotation stretching of the shoulder limits MCL strain and thus minimizing the chance of needing Tommy John surgery. That is the first example I can think of off the top of my head. Sorry I have to research the MD who published the study. Also (not just related to pitchers) by fixing a protracted shoulder posture position the stress can be removed off the rotator cuff (specifically the SS muscle) thus limiting impingement and tears. This is accomplished by addressing a condition known as SICK (scapula infera coracoid dyskinesis) scapular dysfunction. Dr. Craig Morgan, MD and Phillip Donley PT, ATC developed exercises to work on this condition to reduce the stress on the RTC and shoulder. They note that " Forward head and shoulders are key factors in the creation of shoulder problems, pay particular attention to your head and neck posture with each exercise to develop improved posture." Chris

I'm certainly not saying we can't identify high-stress mechanics, just that as you venture deeper in, attempting to identify yellow or red flags, that it gets harder to know what causes the injuries. That difficulty in identifying doesn't mean, however, that you can't identify anything.

[TJ Wrangler]

In principal I agree with your statement, but some injuries have been studied and identified. GIRD (poor IR of the shoulder) leads to increased stress on the MCL of the elbow. The studies have shown that by promoting internal rotation stretching of the shoulder limits MCL strain and thus minimizing the chance of needing Tommy John surgery. That is the first example I can think of off the top of my head. Sorry I have to research the MD who published the study. Also (not just related to pitchers) by fixing a protracted shoulder posture position the stress can be removed off the rotator cuff (specifically the SS muscle) thus limiting impingement and tears. This is accomplished by addressing a condition known as SICK (scapula infera coracoid dyskinesis) scapular dysfunction. Dr. Craig Morgan, MD and Phillip Donley PT, ATC developed exercises to work on this condition to reduce the stress on the RTC and shoulder. They note that " Forward head and shoulders are key factors in the creation of shoulder problems, pay particular attention to your head and neck posture with each exercise to develop improved posture." Chris

He's back!

How have you been, man?

[jerios55]

Yeah. Looks nasty. Not sure how old or how accurate, though.

Right click, properties: the photo is from 2007.

[QBsILLEST1]

Right click, properties: the photo is from 2007.

Thats good that its from 07, hopefully the O's smooth out his mechanics, but still, I dont know how succerssful youtr gonna be in trying to change his mechanics thats much.....

[srock]

Im not a fan either, you can see the inverted W. It isnt as bad as Prioer's was, atleast not that you can tell from the picture, but there also is no telling how much higher his elbows go before he gets in his power position.

I can definately see how that could put strain on the arm though, all you gotta do is try doing it without even throwing and you see how awkward that feel on your arm....Also, the idea of him being overworked in the 07 season into the playoffs is already bad, but if he is being overworked with the inverted W, it makes matters worse....

Sorry to to jargon bash, but isn't an inverted W also known as an M?

Maybe it depends on the font...

[jerios55]

Thats good that its from 07, hopefully the O's smooth out his mechanics, but still, I dont know how succerssful youtr gonna be in trying to change his mechanics thats much.....

True, but now is the time to do it. Working to get back he should have been doing mechanics related drills. Taking a break (due to injury) seems like a great time to lose a little bit of the old repetition and allow for a change.

[QBsILLEST1]

True, but now is the time to do it. Working to get back he should have been doing mechanics related drills. Taking a break (due to injury) seems like a great time to lose a little bit of the old repetition and allow for a change.

Yeah, but his mechanics have helped him become what he is. I mean fixing a hitch or smoothing out herky jerkyness in a pitching motion is one thing, but tampering around with his load could hurt his performance tremendously. What if we straight out his mechanics but due to that loses MPH and straightens out his fastball. Then, he wouldnt be the pitcher he once was and may not even touch the major leagues....Atleast we know that as longas the injury doesnt sap velo and movement that he can definately be a major league pitcher with his electric stuff, even if hes an injury risk, IMO its a risk to take. Besides, if you tamper with him and he loses some effectiveness, he never pitches in the BIGS anyway. Id rather have a pitcher be a successful big league pitcher, have 5 or 6 successful seasons and get hurt again then have a guy never make it out of the minors because he lost so much effectiveness from the major changes in his motion....

I dunno, its just my opinion though, the O's may have differing plans....

[allstar1579]

Yeah, but his mechanics have helped him become what he is. I mean fixing a hitch or smoothing out herky jerkyness in a pitching motion is one thing, but tampering around with his load could hurt his performance tremendously. What if we straight out his mechanics but due to that loses MPH and straightens out his fastball. Then, he wouldnt be the pitcher he once was and may not even touch the major leagues....Atleast we know that as longas the injury doesnt sap velo and movement that he can definately be a major league pitcher with his electric stuff, even if hes an injury risk, IMO its a risk to take. Besides, if you tamper with him and he loses some effectiveness, he never pitches in the BIGS anyway. Id rather have a pitcher be a successful big league pitcher, have 5 or 6 successful seasons and get hurt again then have a guy never make it out of the minors because he lost so much effectiveness from the major changes in his motion....

I dunno, its just my opinion though, the O's may have differing plans....

So you'd really rather have a guy with injury concerns about his delivery than risk that he might lose something on a pitch?

Where do you stand on the Erbe deal last season? (He had a really concerning twitch in his delivery that they changed to reduce injury risk, sacrificing a bit of his mph.)

[QBsILLEST1]

So you'd really rather have a guy with injury concerns about his delivery than risk that he might lose something on a pitch?

Where do you stand on the Erbe deal last season? (He had a really concerning twitch in his delivery that they changed to reduce injury risk, sacrificing a bit of his mph.)

Well you see, the way I look at it is this. Id rather keep him the same same and risk injury for him to be a successful pitcher than change some major parts in his delivery and him losing so much effectiveness that he never becomes a ML player. Id rather have guy "A" who pitches 5 successful seasons and blows his arm up than guy "B" who never becomes a MLer because he loses so much effectiveness.

Now on that same subject, if they can minimize or even have no difference in his effectiveness if they change him, Im all for it, but pitchers are sensitive in the fact that tweaking them slightly from what they're muscle memory is can mess them up forever.

As for the Erbe situation, I cant speak much on that because I didnt know how bad his twitch was and how much of a red flag it is. What twitch did he have? I know he is max effort, and its kinda hard to change that so Im guessing its something else, but Im 50/50 on the Erbe situation, and it depended on how serious it was. As messed up as itsounds, I mroe than likely would have favored keeping his delivery the same unless it was something thats labeled a ticking time bomb rather than just a red flag....

[jerios55]

Yeah, but his mechanics have helped him become what he is. I mean fixing a hitch or smoothing out herky jerkyness in a pitching motion is one thing, but tampering around with his load could hurt his performance tremendously. What if we straight out his mechanics but due to that loses MPH and straightens out his fastball. Then, he wouldnt be the pitcher he once was and may not even touch the major leagues....Atleast we know that as longas the injury doesnt sap velo and movement that he can definately be a major league pitcher with his electric stuff, even if hes an injury risk, IMO its a risk to take. Besides, if you tamper with him and he loses some effectiveness, he never pitches in the BIGS anyway. Id rather have a pitcher be a successful big league pitcher, have 5 or 6 successful seasons and get hurt again then have a guy never make it out of the minors because he lost so much effectiveness from the major changes in his motion....

I dunno, its just my opinion though, the O's may have differing plans....

I'd rather him be a healthy human being than asking for an arm injury. I agree he could lose effectiveness, guess it depends on how he holds up upon return.

[NoVaO]

I disagree here. That motion was taught with claims that it increased velocity. That and an extreme scapular load was supposed to be the revolution of pitching mechanics. While it's effectiveness can be debated, the fact is that it's an unnatural motion for the arm. That when combined with throwing the ball at high speeds can increase the chance for injury.

That's not true if you've talked to players that actually have that arm action or parents of children who have developed that arm action. Anybody that intentionally makes that arm action is setting themselves up for injury. Pitching in general is an unnatural motion for the arm.