Spoone Interview

[NoVaO]

My issue with this arm is how it messes up your timing (arm not in high cocked position as your front foot lands). It is my belief that this timing takes the load off of your core and increases the load on your shoulders, since your arm is lagging behind. Maybe this lag behind increases the whip effect of your arm...that I wouldn't argue, but even if it does, is it worth the increased stress on your shoulder and elbow? Some bodies can handle it more than others.

As far as Prior goes, Tom House built him as "the perfect pitcher" since his days in high school.

I'm not really a Tom House guy and he said what he said about Prior and there is no changing that, but the man has a long record of coaching with some good results. We have to remember that in addition to Prior, House worked extensively with Nolan Ryan (he even credited House in his HoF induction speech), Randy Johnson, Orel Hershiser, and many other big time, durable pitchers. You have all these pitchers with completely different styles of pitching.

Secondly, as much as everybody blames Prior's mechanics for his injuries, I still have my doubts. This was a pitcher whose arm was abused in high school, in college (though I believe there was at least some effort to limit his pitch counts), and then by Dusty Baker. His elbow was fractured by a rocket line drive off a hitter's bat.

But his collision with Giles I think is the biggest factor for his injuries because it was years after the collision that doctors found his shoulder had torn away from the humerus, an injury not seen in baseball players and usually occurring in people involved in a fall or collision. In fact, that injury can also be accompanied by tears in a player's labrum or rotator cuff. Prior had shown no signs of injury before that collision.

I think -- when you combine all these circumstances together -- that's enough proof to say that it was external circumstances and not Prior's mechanics that led to his downfall.

That's not to say Prior's mechanics were good because they were in fact to armsy and linear for my taste.

From my understand, arm action for House is a non-teach. Unless there are problems with the arm action that limit a pitcher's mechanics from being as efficient as possible, House leaves the hand break and arm action up to the pitcher.

[mark_beckens]

I disagree here. That motion was taught with claims that it increased velocity. That and an extreme scapular load was supposed to be the revolution of pitching mechanics. While it's effectiveness can be debated, the fact is that it's an unnatural motion for the arm. That when combined with throwing the ball at high speeds can increase the chance for injury.

I don't completely agree with this. You learn to throw as a kid, you develop a throwing motion when you in little league and high school. You don't draft a guy and completely reteach him how to throw. You can tweak a throwing motion, but not teach a new one.

[mark_beckens]

I disagree here. That motion was taught with claims that it increased velocity. That and an extreme scapular load was supposed to be the revolution of pitching mechanics. While it's effectiveness can be debated, the fact is that it's an unnatural motion for the arm. That when combined with throwing the ball at high speeds can increase the chance for injury.

Throwing a baseball overhand, is an "unnatural" act.

[csgordos]

Throwing a baseball overhand, is an "unnatural" act.

Doing anything above shoulder height is an "unnatural" motion. The shoulder was not optimally designed for overhead motions. There is an impingement on the rotator cuff every time you go above 90 degrees of shoulder flexion. The stronger the scapular muscles, better posture, and proper flexibility will minimize the impingement, but you cannot eliminate it. The overhead athlete is a time bomb waiting to happen (pitching, QBs, Tennis, Swimming, etc). That is why most pitchers eventually end up with shoulder injuries and if not utilizing the shoulder correctly eventually elbow problems because of compensation. That is why Justin states it is an unnatural act. Hope that helps. Chris

[csgordos]

that doctors found his shoulder had torn away from the humerus, an injury not seen in baseball players and usually occurring in people involved in a fall or collision. In fact, that injury can also be accompanied by tears in a player's labrum or rotator cuff.

NoVaO: What does that actually mean? I am confused. The humerus is actually part of the shoulder. Do you mean it was dislocated/subluxed? Just looking for clarification. And you are correct if you mean a dislocation of the humerus from the scapula/acromion will result in a labral tear. When you dislocate there is a 99% chance you will tear the labrum during the relocation action. The most prominant ortho in my area that did his residency with Dr. Andrew's notes he has only ever seen one dislocated shoulder that did not have a labral tear. Chris

[QBsILLEST1]

I don't completely agree with this. You learn to throw as a kid, you develop a throwing motion when you in little league and high school. You don't draft a guy and completely reteach him how to throw. You can tweak a throwing motion, but not teach a new one.

Have you ever been to a baseball camp before? I went to the William and Mary camp done by Jim Farr. and his daughter was very sexy might I add, but, they go through drills in which you abide by the mechanics that the coach teaches. If he was a believer in this motion, as some folks are, then he is going to teach it when doing the camps to the pitchers.

Farr would teach us how to load and go from that to power position and and so on. Farr never taught us to do the inverted W in any which way, but if he was a believer in it, then he would have taught it, and when they stand in front of you and tell you to do the drills and go through the motion that they teach you, he doesnt ask you which motion you wanna use, he shows you and expects it.

So this is going on to say that if a pitching coach believes in this motion, then he will teach his players to use it. Some pitchers may use this deleivery naturally, some may not, but it definately is taught as well.....

And yes, the overhand motion is unnatural. Apparently, this is why in softball, atleast in HS, you only needed 1 starting pitcher, she would start every game. Physically, she was able to do this because the underhand motion is less stressful on the arm and enabled you/her to be ready again to pitch a full game in a few days...

[NoVaO]

NoVaO: What does that actually mean? I am confused. The humerus is actually part of the shoulder. Do you mean it was dislocated/subluxed? Just looking for clarification. And you are correct if you mean a dislocation of the humerus from the scapula/acromion will result in a labral tear. When you dislocate there is a 99% chance you will tear the labrum during the relocation action. The most prominant ortho in my area that did his residency with Dr. Andrew's notes he has only ever seen one dislocated shoulder that did not have a labral tear. Chris

Here is the quote...I should of said the capsule in Prior's right shoulder:

The capsule in Prior's right shoulder had torn away from the humerus bone, an injury neither Hoenecke nor Fronek had ever heard of another baseball player having it before.

HAGL, as it's called, describes a humeral avulsion of the glenohumeral ligaments. The injury, according to Fronek, is most often associated with a "traumatic events, usually from a fall."

Source: http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080605&content_id=2850165&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

[NoVaO]

Doing anything above shoulder height is an "unnatural" motion. The shoulder was not optimally designed for overhead motions. There is an impingement on the rotator cuff every time you go above 90 degrees of shoulder flexion. The stronger the scapular muscles, better posture, and proper flexibility will minimize the impingement, but you cannot eliminate it. The overhead athlete is a time bomb waiting to happen (pitching, QBs, Tennis, Swimming, etc). That is why most pitchers eventually end up with shoulder injuries and if not utilizing the shoulder correctly eventually elbow problems because of compensation. That is why Justin states it is an unnatural act. Hope that helps. Chris

The timing of various events is extremely important to distinguish here.

The elbow above the shoulder in itself is not injurious. It's the point in which the elbow is above the shoulder. If the arm is rotating externally with the elbow above the shoulder, then we have a problem. I think Brandon McCarthy is an example of this.

But what often happens is the elbow gets above the shoulder and drops back down to at or below shoulder level before the point of maximum stress. That's where I think people get confused. It's not just the elbow getting higher than the shoulder, it's what it does when it's up there.

[mark_beckens]

Have you ever been to a baseball camp before? I went to the William and Mary camp done by Jim Farr. and his daughter was very sexy might I add, but, they go through drills in which you abide by the mechanics that the coach teaches. If he was a believer in this motion, as some folks are, then he is going to teach it when doing the camps to the pitchers.

Farr would teach us how to load and go from that to power position and and so on. Farr never taught us to do the inverted W in any which way, but if he was a believer in it, then he would have taught it, and when they stand in front of you and tell you to do the drills and go through the motion that they teach you, he doesnt ask you which motion you wanna use, he shows you and expects it.

So this is going on to say that if a pitching coach believes in this motion, then he will teach his players to use it. Some pitchers may use this deleivery naturally, some may not, but it definately is taught as well.....

And yes, the overhand motion is unnatural. Apparently, this is why in softball, atleast in HS, you only needed 1 starting pitcher, she would start every game. Physically, she was able to do this because the underhand motion is less stressful on the arm and enabled you/her to be ready again to pitch a full game in a few days...

Why don't you read my post again!

[mark_beckens]

Have you ever been to a baseball camp before? I went to the William and Mary camp done by Jim Farr. and his daughter was very sexy might I add, but, they go through drills in which you abide by the mechanics that the coach teaches. If he was a believer in this motion, as some folks are, then he is going to teach it when doing the camps to the pitchers.

Farr would teach us how to load and go from that to power position and and so on. Farr never taught us to do the inverted W in any which way, but if he was a believer in it, then he would have taught it, and when they stand in front of you and tell you to do the drills and go through the motion that they teach you, he doesnt ask you which motion you wanna use, he shows you and expects it.

So this is going on to say that if a pitching coach believes in this motion, then he will teach his players to use it. Some pitchers may use this deleivery naturally, some may not, but it definately is taught as well.....

And yes, the overhand motion is unnatural. Apparently, this is why in softball, atleast in HS, you only needed 1 starting pitcher, she would start every game. Physically, she was able to do this because the underhand motion is less stressful on the arm and enabled you/her to be ready again to pitch a full game in a few days...

To answer your question. Yeah, I've been to many baseball camps. Not only as a camper, but as a teacher. I've helped teach kids how to throw while I was a player, helping coach at Mansfield University in PA.

[TJ Wrangler]

That's not true if you've talked to players that actually have that arm action or parents of children who have developed that arm action. Anybody that intentionally makes that arm action is setting themselves up for injury. Pitching in general is an unnatural motion for the arm.

I don't completely agree with this. You learn to throw as a kid, you develop a throwing motion when you in little league and high school. You don't draft a guy and completely reteach him how to throw. You can tweak a throwing motion, but not teach a new one.

Great discussion here. My regret is that I wasn't here to fully participate when it happened.

That said, if you look at pitching mechanics in the majors over the era, you don't really notice the inverted w until modern times. The reason I believe this is the case is because within the past 10 years or so, the concept of scapular loading was introduced and claimed to revolutionize pitching. It is true that a lot of great pitchers did scapular load, but not in the way it was taught in the past 10 years. The misunderstanding that was taught was that you should immediately and forcefully squeeze your shoulder blades together as you break your hands. That in turn creates an elbow lift motion and puts your shoulder in what is likely one of the most functionally weak positions you can put it in. All this was based off of the idea that it would help you use the scapula to help you throw harder. This phenomenon was preached as gospel for much of the past 10 years, and experts bought into it and taught it as correct.

So to answer your posts, NoVaO, I'm sure it was developed by kids because it was taught to them or they saw someone they admire doing it. Mark, I'm sure most players aren't taught this after they are drafted, but they are taught it or encounter it at some point during their young careers, and the issue is that it isn't always fixed due to an overall lack of understand of what is good and bad and due to a desire for more immediate results holding more importance than idea of possibly trading off results for health.

[NoVaO]

That said, if you look at pitching mechanics in the majors over the era, you don't really notice the inverted w until modern times. The reason I believe this is the case is because within the past 10 years or so, the concept of scapular loading was introduced and claimed to revolutionize pitching.

How do you know there weren't pitchers using inverted arm actions back in the day? Pictures and especially video is sparse, but I found my fair share of players that used an inverted arm action. But really there is no way of knowing. The concept of scapular loading was introduced because it was determined that the very best pitchers did it. Doesn't matter what type of arm action one had.

Don Drysdale and Bob Feller to a lesser extent had inverted arm actions. What do you make of this guy:

Mickey Lolich...he pitched 3,600 innings including a 376 inning season in 1971 and never had one arm injury. Not one.

Recognize this guy?

I think most would say this guy was a pretty durable pitcher.

You know who also has been pretty good and durable? This guy...

Another point here is that by your logic, pitchers should have been healthy back in the day, but really the opposite is true. Pitchers had their careers constantly cut short because of injuries to their elbow or shoulder, many of whom used the mechanics you are aspiring for pitchers to use today.

So to answer your posts, NoVaO, I'm sure it was developed by kids because it was taught to them or they saw someone they admire doing it. Mark, I'm sure most players aren't taught this after they are drafted, but they are taught it or encounter it at some point during their young careers, and the issue is that it isn't always fixed due to an overall lack of understand of what is good and bad and due to a desire for more immediate results holding more importance than idea of possibly trading off results for health.

Look, my feeling is that the pitcher should just let the arm does what it does naturally. Make sure all the other parts of the delivery are in sync and as efficient as possible. Nobody should be forcing a kid to use an inverted arm action because if you force the arm up there, you're asking for injury. And nobody should be changing a kid's arm action to make it safer if the kid is getting the results he desires.

[TJ Wrangler]

How do you know there weren't pitchers using inverted arm actions back in the day? Pictures and especially video is sparse, but I found my fair share of players that used an inverted arm action. But really there is no way of knowing. The concept of scapular loading was introduced because it was determined that the very best pitchers did it. Doesn't matter what type of arm action one had.

Don Drysdale and Bob Feller to a lesser extent had inverted arm actions. What do you make of this guy:

Mickey Lolich...he pitched 3,600 innings including a 376 inning season in 1971 and never had one arm injury. Not one.

Recognize this guy?

I think most would say this guy was a pretty durable pitcher.

You know who also has been pretty good and durable? This guy...

Another point here is that by your logic, pitchers should have been healthy back in the day, but really the opposite is true. Pitchers had their careers constantly cut short because of injuries to their elbow or shoulder, many of whom used the mechanics you are aspiring for pitchers to use today.

Look, my feeling is that the pitcher should just let the arm does what it does naturally. Make sure all the other parts of the delivery are in sync and as efficient as possible. Nobody should be forcing a kid to use an inverted arm action because if you force the arm up there, you're asking for injury. And nobody should be changing a kid's arm action to make it safer if the kid is getting the results he desires.

If you've followed my posting, the reason I don't like that is because it has a tendency to disrupt timing, which is what I consider to be the big cause of injuries. Fact is, the inverted w or any variation is more likely to disrupt timing than the arm swing method. That's not to say it's guaranteed to disrupt timing, but it is more likely based on the simple fact that your arm has to travel much father to get into the high cocked position. None of your pictures show what happens when the front foot lands, so while the arm actions could be problematic and place more stress on the shoulder, the actual timing of the pitchers might not be that bad.

Also, my post was intended to address when the inverted w became widely preached, not to say that it has never been used prior. Maybe some kids do develop it naturally, but I know from research that it became commonly preached around the time scapular loading was advocated as a method to increase velocity, which was within the past 10 years. In turn, you have seen more and more pitchers using that method in the past 10 years. That is also why more kids might develop it, because they see it more often and accept it as the right way to throw, even at the unknowing potential expense to their health. That's all I was getting at.

Sorry if that sort of ran together. I've had a long day, but I wanted to respond to you while I had everything fresh in my mind.

[NoVaO]

If you've followed my posting, the reason I don't like that is because it has a tendency to disrupt timing, which is what I consider to be the big cause of injuries. Fact is, the inverted w or any variation is more likely to disrupt timing than the arm swing method. That's not to say it's guaranteed to disrupt timing, but it is more likely based on the simple fact that your arm has to travel much father to get into the high cocked position. None of your pictures show what happens when the front foot lands, so while the arm actions could be problematic and place more stress on the shoulder, the actual timing of the pitchers might not be that bad.

I can go along with this. Unfortunately, there are many that think just because the elbow goes above the shoulder that in itself is the cause of injury when that's not true.

Also, my post was intended to address when the inverted w became widely preached, not to say that it has never been used prior. Maybe some kids do develop it naturally, but I know from research that it became commonly preached around the time scapular loading was advocated as a method to increase velocity, which was within the past 10 years. In turn, you have seen more and more pitchers using that method in the past 10 years. That is also why more kids might develop it, because they see it more often and accept it as the right way to throw, even at the unknowing potential expense to their health. That's all I was getting at.

I'm positive there are kids that do it naturally because I've interacted with parents who have told me as such.

I'm also not sure when the Inverted-W was widely preached. Scap loading was preached, but even Paul Nyman understood scap loading could be achieved and velocity could be created through different arm actions. I can't think of anyone that openly taught pitchers to make inverted arm actions and if they did they would be wrong to do.

But to go back to timing for a second, I don't think the arm being late is necessarily a bad thing, especially when a pitcher gets both velocity and command. Some pitchers have fast enough arms to overcome any problems with timing. And timing problems aren't the only cause of injury obviously. I mean, Ben McDonald had fine timing and look where that got him.

[RVAbird]

I have absolutely nothing to add to this thread except to say that it has been a fantastic read.