Spoone Interview

[mark_beckens]

Great discussion here. My regret is that I wasn't here to fully participate when it happened.

That said, if you look at pitching mechanics in the majors over the era, you don't really notice the inverted w until modern times. The reason I believe this is the case is because within the past 10 years or so, the concept of scapular loading was introduced and claimed to revolutionize pitching. It is true that a lot of great pitchers did scapular load, but not in the way it was taught in the past 10 years. The misunderstanding that was taught was that you should immediately and forcefully squeeze your shoulder blades together as you break your hands. That in turn creates an elbow lift motion and puts your shoulder in what is likely one of the most functionally weak positions you can put it in. All this was based off of the idea that it would help you use the scapula to help you throw harder. This phenomenon was preached as gospel for much of the past 10 years, and experts bought into it and taught it as correct.

So to answer your posts, NoVaO, I'm sure it was developed by kids because it was taught to them or they saw someone they admire doing it. Mark, I'm sure most players aren't taught this after they are drafted, but they are taught it or encounter it at some point during their young careers, and the issue is that it isn't always fixed due to an overall lack of understand of what is good and bad and due to a desire for more immediate results holding more importance than idea of possibly trading off results for health.

My post, said that you learn or are taught to throw as a kid, little league, jr. high. Once you get to HS or college, your throwing motion is what it is, it can be tweeked. But it is almost impossible to remake. You can't teach someone to forget the muscle memory they already have to throw one way and get them to throw a completely different way. You couldn't send Spoone to EST and reteach him to throw another way so he was not as much of an injury risk.

[mark_beckens]

If you've followed my posting, the reason I don't like that is because it has a tendency to disrupt timing, which is what I consider to be the big cause of injuries. Fact is, the inverted w or any variation is more likely to disrupt timing than the arm swing method. That's not to say it's guaranteed to disrupt timing, but it is more likely based on the simple fact that your arm has to travel much father to get into the high cocked position. None of your pictures show what happens when the front foot lands, so while the arm actions could be problematic and place more stress on the shoulder, the actual timing of the pitchers might not be that bad.

Also, my post was intended to address when the inverted w became widely preached, not to say that it has never been used prior. Maybe some kids do develop it naturally, but I know from research that it became commonly preached around the time scapular loading was advocated as a method to increase velocity, which was within the past 10 years. In turn, you have seen more and more pitchers using that method in the past 10 years. That is also why more kids might develop it, because they see it more often and accept it as the right way to throw, even at the unknowing potential expense to their health. That's all I was getting at.

Sorry if that sort of ran together. I've had a long day, but I wanted to respond to you while I had everything fresh in my mind.

Was wondering, why is it called an inverted W, and not an M? Isn't an inverted W the same as a M?

[NoVaO]

Was wondering, why is it called an inverted W, and not an M? Isn't an inverted W the same as a M?

They are the same thing. I'm not completely sure why it's been an Inverted W, but I've always thought it was because Inverted W sounds flashier than M.

[csgordos]

Here is the quote...I should of said the capsule in Prior's right shoulder:

Source: http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080605&content_id=2850165&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

Thanks for the clarification as this makes a lot more sense. And yes tearing of a shoulder capsule is not something commonly seen. And I would wager if it happened in a normal population that a person would rehab it by focusing on strengthening activities, minimize the pain, and then wait for the arthritis to set in 15-20 years later. However, with an overhead athlete it creates significant instability issues that will magnify any shoulder / upper extremity flaw that can lead to career ending issues. Thanks again for helping me understand. Chris

[TJ Wrangler]

I can go along with this. Unfortunately, there are many that think just because the elbow goes above the shoulder that in itself is the cause of injury when that's not true.

I'm positive there are kids that do it naturally because I've interacted with parents who have told me as such.

I'm also not sure when the Inverted-W was widely preached. Scap loading was preached, but even Paul Nyman understood scap loading could be achieved and velocity could be created through different arm actions. I can't think of anyone that openly taught pitchers to make inverted arm actions and if they did they would be wrong to do.

But to go back to timing for a second, I don't think the arm being late is necessarily a bad thing, especially when a pitcher gets both velocity and command. Some pitchers have fast enough arms to overcome any problems with timing. And timing problems aren't the only cause of injury obviously. I mean, Ben McDonald had fine timing and look where that got him.

My issue with the elbow going above the shoulder (hyperabduction) is that it puts the shoulder joint in a functionally weak position, so any movement while it's in that state is inherently more stressful on the shoulder joint.

I'm sure some kids do it naturally, but my point is that how much of that "natural" way of doing things was picked up because of seeing someone else do it and accepting it as the natural way to do it. For example, coach teaches pitcher the arm action, then the kid sees pitcher throwing and replicates that arm action. My point being is that is it actually the natural way they would have thrown the ball, or was it influenced indirectly through misinformation?

I'm sure pitching coaches didn't mean to preach the inverted arm action, but a lot of it was preached as a misunderstanding of how scapular loading works. If you scap load before your arm is swung into the high cocked position, you are effectively lifting with your elbows, or making the inverted w. My belief is that it was taught as a misunderstanding of how to properly scapular load.

As for the arm being late not being a bad thing, I'll have to disagree there. I'm in the belief that it's likely the main cause for shoulder and elbow problems due to the increased stress caused by isolating the arm from the torso. It may not be the result of control and velocity problems. I think those are a result of inconsistent timing. So one could have bad timing but still throw hard and command the ball, but one could have good or bad timing, have something disrupt it somehow, and then get wild. As for McDonald, he was probably not genetically or physically conditioned for the workload and his arm likely suffered as a result. Some pitchers just aren't cut out for a long career due to reasons beyond their control. That said, if used properly and with good mechanics, I believe more pitchers can pitch longer with less injury.

Sorry again for the delayed response. I've been really busy recently and unable to check. I also think this one is worded a little better and I haven't been swamped today. All in all, great conversation.

[TJ Wrangler]

My post, said that you learn or are taught to throw as a kid, little league, jr. high. Once you get to HS or college, your throwing motion is what it is, it can be tweeked. But it is almost impossible to remake. You can't teach someone to forget the muscle memory they already have to throw one way and get them to throw a completely different way. You couldn't send Spoone to EST and reteach him to throw another way so he was not as much of an injury risk.

This is likely true. It is hard to redevelop muscle memory, but it's not impossible. It's just something that will take time.

I agree though. The more a person throws, the more difficult a complete overhaul will be. It could very well be best to make small tweeks here and there rather than overhauling something all at once.

By the way, I have no idea why it's called an inverted w. I prefer to call pitchers elbow lifters if they make the motion. I would say that a pitcher lifts with their elbows rather than makes the inverted w. This is in part to my theory of why it happens outlined in the post above.