Does Trembley really believe this?

[LookitsPuck]

It wasn't a H&R it was a strait steal. A lot of guys keep their head down on a steal. It's not good fundamentals, but if they steal a lot of bases nobody's gonna call them on it. Izzy should have been looking for the ball or Samuel, but I don't think he was a lock to score.

Uhm, you said:

With Izzy, imagine if it hadn't been a hit and run,

Regardless, he definitely needs to be looking at the 3rd base coach if he had no idea where the ball was like he did yesterday. It was a dumb move, and I think he would certainly have been a lock to score. You don't. Difference in opinion on that. All I know is he looked like a fish out of water once he got up after "stealing" 2nd base.

[LookinUp]

Actually, he was asking a question that IMO is entirely relevant to the discussion in this thread. It was in response to those who have expressed the opinion that the O's manager should indeed respond to players in a punitive and authoritarian way. I don't see how it's "derailing" anything to ask for evidence of that approach being successful in modern times.

Actually, he generalized the point I was making, ignored other posts I made in this thread and then told me to "get real." He was either being ignorant or a jerk. I've noticed that every time he and I comment to each other lately, I get the same treatment.

For the record, though I think it should go without saying, I don't want our coaches to treat our esteemed ballplayers like a bunch of high schoolers.

Of a Baseball coach who treats his multi-milion dollar players like a bunch of high school football players, and lasts whole season. Get real.

However, RShack, the point you raised is certainly worthy of discussion. First, I'd ask, what approach? As I said in this post, I agree that the tactics need to be flexible. The outcome, which is disciplined/sound/fundamental is what's important.

Disciplined performance is a hallmark of good teams. If Trembley's fired, it won't be because he was too nice or too mean (unless he loses him mind). It'll be because his team isn't playing disciplined.

Good coaches make sure their players execute with discipline. You seem to be taking the position that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. That perspective is sure to get the man fired.

If I were Dave Trembley and I had never played MLB, I'd understand that I need to find a way, any way, to get these guys to play fundamental baseball. I'd talk to them, I'd go old school, I'd implement new and/or extra drills, whatever. The end point is discipline. I agree that the tactics need to be flexible.

[LookinUp]

Let's see. In baseball Leyland, LaRussa, Maddon and Pinella come to mind. In football, Parcells, Shanahan, Belichick, and Reid come to mind.

You don't have to be the reincarnation of Lombardi but you do have to make players accountable. I really can't understand why some many people don't get that.

Thank you for making this point better than I can. This really shouldn't be difficult to understand.

+rep (but I must spread it around first)

[LookitsPuck]

Exactly. I absolutely HATE it when people say, "Derr de derr, the manager isn't running or hitting, why is it his fault?" It's because these players are making it a HABIT. Once it's a habit, THEN it's the manager's fault.

[Tony-OH]

It wasn't a H&R it was a strait steal. A lot of guys keep their head down on a steal. It's not good fundamentals, but if they steal a lot of bases nobody's gonna call them on it. Izzy should have been looking for the ball or Samuel, but I don't think he was a lock to score.

I believe Trembley said it was a hit and run, but regardless, the runner is supposed to take a peak on a straight steal if the batter has two strikes.

[Frobby]

In the case if CI, I really think things are getting way overblown around here. In his brief time here, CI has shown himself to be competent, professional, and has delivered pretty much the kind of performance that we hoped and expected to get from him. To be making a federal case about a guy like CI running with his head down and losing awareness of the ball is making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, we can say it cost us a run. Lots of things cost us a run. Nothing went wrong yesterday that a timely base hit would not have fixed. CI is not a dumb ballplayer, and IMO climbing all over one event involving CI is dumb. A big part of what's going on is that this place has established the view that baserunning mistakes are somehow DT's Waterloo, and therefore any time anything happens on the basepaths, people cite it as more evidence.

I generally think Izturis is a smart player. He has done a good job stealing bases (9 for 9), though Baseball Prospectus has his overall baserunning at -.9 runs (+1.5 for base stealing and -2.4 for other categories). The details escape me, but I recall one other time he was involved in a bad baserunning play that got criticized around here, and I believe that was on a play I hadn't seen.

I can't speak for anyone else on this board, but yes I see the O's baserunning woes as DT's achilles heel. The team has gotten dramatically worse in this area since DT took over as manager, and at some point, you have to hold the manager accountable even when on any individual play you could say it was the player's fault and there was nothing the manager coud have done about it. Every team makes baserunning mistakes. Every team makes dumb baserunning mistakes. But the O's are doing it more often than they used to, and more often than every other team in MLB according to the stats. So to me, that's on DT and his staff, and every time it happens, that feeling is reinforced.

[Old#5fan]

The baserunning by this team including primarily the veterans is inexcusably bad and that falls on the Manager. For example, why on God's green earth did Roberts do a head first slide into a catcher the size of Molina? Of course human tendancy when doing a head first slide would be to try to avoid the contact of such a huge obstacle as Molina blocking the place, especially when your head and neck is going to be making the initial and hardest contact. That decision to slide head first is what caused Roberts to be out by missing the plate. Had he slide feet first like he should have he could have easily gotten his leg in under the tag. Again, these are MENTAL mistakes by HIGH PAID ESTABLISHED VETERANS! :angryfire:The same with Isturis.

These VETS need to be read the RIOT ACT by the MANAGER.:cussing: Until they straighten these ridiculous mental mistakes out this team is doomed to lose for eternity.

[RShack]

The baserunning by this team including primarily the veterans is inexcusably bad and that falls on the Manager. For example, why on God's green earth di Roberts do a head first slide into a catcher the size of Molina?

This post captures the general spirit of many posts around here lately: DT is a bad manager because of how a guy who is perhaps our most accomplished baserunner chose to slide on one particular play.

[Mackus]

This post captures the general spirit of many posts around here lately: DT is a bad manager because of how a guy who is perhaps our most accomplished baserunner chose to slide on one particular play.

Its also factually incorrect, as Roberts didn't slide into Molina, but rather the pitcher covering.

Of course, look who its coming from, can't expect reason, factual accuracy, or willingness to admit when proven wrong.

[Mooreisbetter27]

The baserunning by this team including primarily the veterans is inexcusably bad and that falls on the Manager. For example, why on God's green earth did Roberts do a head first slide into a catcher the size of Molina?

Did you even watch the game? The headfirst slide was into the pitcher. Molina threw to the pitcher on the wild pitch.

[Old#5fan]

This post captures the general spirit of many posts around here lately: DT is a bad manager because of how a guy who is perhaps our most accomplished baserunner chose to slide on one particular play.

I think in private back in the clubhouse DT should have gotten in Robert's face and point blank given him a severe butt chewing. Roberts is too good a player to be making stupid decisions like he made on the play. He needs to know he is going to get some sort of retribution for it and it makes me wonder if DT ever really gets into the face of any of his primma donna veterans of which Roberts is certainly the main one.

[Old#5fan]

Did you even watch the game? The headfirst slide was into the pitcher. Molina threw to the pitcher on the wild pitch.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I guess he did, (my bad as I did see the play) but at any rate, that head first slide was beyond stupid which the point remains the same regardless of who was covering home.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think in private back in the clubhouse DT should have gotten in Robert's face and point blank given him a severe butt chewing. Roberts is too good a player to be making stupid decisions like he made on the play. He needs to know he is going to get some sort of retribution for it...

Setting aside whether this is an appropriate thing to do, how do you know if Trembley did or didn't do this? You're chewing him out for a hypothetical situation.

and it makes me wonder if DT ever really gets into the face of any of his primma donna veterans of which Roberts is certainly the main one.

Prima Donna. N. A person who considers himself or herself much more important than others, has high expectations of others and becomes angry when his or her standards or demands are not met.

That's Brian Roberts? Really?

[Old#5fan]

Setting aside whether this is an appropriate thing to do, how do you know if Trembley did or didn't do this? You're chewing him out for a hypothetical situation.

True, maybe he did but I doubt it because it seems like the same mistakes repeat themselves.

Prima Donna. N. A person who considers himself or herself much more important than others, has high expectations of others and becomes angry when his or her standards or demands are not met.

That's Brian Roberts? Really?

I think he comes off that way sometimes. He just reminds me of someone enamored with watching himself play more than playing the game.

[Tx Oriole]

This is absolutely correct, and I have pointed this out at other times this year.

To me, that's a very bad sign.

We still don't know what was said behind closed doors to Izzy, Roberts or Reimold, or any player that makes mistakes. What if DT has begged these palyers to pay more attention. And what if they still screw up? Whose fault is it then? Seems to me everyone wants to roast DT without knowin the real facts. IMO