A Team With Lots Of Class?

[Austin]

Annoyed, not outraged. I've said that I like Braun as a player; I just disapprove of his behavior. I'll leave it at that, except that I think that a lot of O's fans would feel quite differently if it were a Yankees or Red Sox player behaving that way in Camden Yards.

I guess maybe why I'm not as annoyed as you are is that Yankees and Red Sox players have been acting worse than that in Camden Yards for years now. I mean Manny Ramirez high fived a Red Sox fan in our own outfield last year and it was some huge joke. Joba and Papelbon routinely pump their fists and yell and scream when they strike a guy out. Sorry, but Braun high fiving a couple of team mates after a fairly big home run seems like innocent celebration to me.

[Mooreisbetter27]

Annoyed, not outraged. I've said that I like Braun as a player; I just disapprove of his behavior. I'll leave it at that, except that I think that a lot of O's fans would feel quite differently if it were a Yankees or Red Sox player behaving that way in Camden Yards.

If this was something they do on a normal basis, I can't imagine it would bother me personally. It would bother me that they hit a HR for sure, but it wouldn't bother me at all.

It certainly wouldn't bother me AT ALL, if it was the Yankees playing the Indians when this happened. I mean, they weren't even playing the Cardinals. If anything I'd just be happy they were down by 3 runs.

But be mad that they did a ritual they do in every game? No, wouldn't bother me.

[DrungoHazewood]

In your opinion, and apparently several other OH posters agree with you. However, Braun's celebration after that home run last night was definitely inappropriate in my opinion, given the game situation. You don't celebrate individual accomplishments when your team is losing; other players may acknowledge them quietly, but that jive stuff isn't appropriate when your team is down 3 runs with 1 out left.

Did you really say "that jive stuff" in 2009? Did you run that part of your post through this online translator? Or are you really one of those dudes from Airplane! who got smacked down by the Beaver's mom?

[Migrant Redbird]

Did you really say "that jive stuff" in 2009?

I'm 62 years old and I watch very little popular TV. I'm not going to study up and keep my slang up to date just to impress you or anyone else. If you have a problem with that, then you're addressing the wrong person.

[orayole]

This is stupid. He wasn't doing anything to the other team. He celebrated with his teammates after he crossed the plate.

And plunking another player for it is stupid. Screw "taking your medicine". He didn't do anything to deserve it. I'd like to see a batter throw his bat at a pitcher after an intentional plunk to see how he likes it.

[byrdz]

Personally, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with Papelbon's or Joba's fistpumps either.

I don't have a problem with what Braun did but I do have a problem with a pitcher doing a fist pump after every strike thrown. Could be my hatred for the RS and Yanks also...

[beaner]

I was really hoping for a response to the McGwire "stomach punch" thing he did when he hit his homers back in 1998. Cleveland C/DH/1B victor Martinez has a different handshake/dance with each teammate.

[Migrant Redbird]

I was really hoping for a response to the McGwire "stomach punch" thing he did when he hit his homers back in 1998.

Why? I didn't even remember it until you reminded me, and I still don't recall the circumstances, except for when McGwire and Sammy Sosa celebrated together the time that Mark broke the Maris record. I definitely wasn't enthralled by the interruption of the game to stage a "buddy-buddy moment" with Sosa, but that's about all that I can recall about my feelings that year regarding the carrying on. I can tell you that I was somewhat caught up in the excitement of the home run race, along with virtually all of my fellow Cardinals fans. The dissenters didn't really show up much until the next year or two.

There are Cardinals fans who remain deeply critical of the distraction of the great home run race in 1998, when the interests of the team were subordinated to an extent by the manager and team management to the excitement of setting a new record. McGwire put a large number of rear ends in the seats that year, but the team finished 19 games behind the Astros and was never seriously in the division race after early June. I suppose that was due more to the injury to Matt Morris that season and to Alan Benes the year before, but a lot of fans still are bitter about the apparent focus of team objectives on the individual accomplishments of McGwire.

I imagine there was some similarity to the pursuit of Gehrig's iron man record.

[Mooreisbetter27]

Why? I didn't even remember it until you reminded me, and I still don't recall the circumstances, except for when McGwire and Sammy Sosa celebrated together the time that Mark broke the Maris record. I definitely wasn't enthralled by the interruption of the game to stage a "buddy-buddy moment" with Sosa, but that's about all that I can recall about my feelings that year regarding the carrying on. I can tell you that I was somewhat caught up in the excitement of the home run race, along with virtually all of my fellow Cardinals fans. The dissenters didn't really show up much until the next year or two.

There are Cardinals fans who remain deeply critical of the distraction of the great home run race in 1998, when the interests of the team were subordinated to an extent by the manager and team management to the excitement of setting a new record. McGwire put a large number of rear ends in the seats that year, but the team finished 19 games behind the Astros and was never seriously in the division race after early June. I suppose that was due more to the injury to Matt Morris that season and to Alan Benes the year before, but a lot of fans still are bitter about the apparent focus of team objectives on the individual accomplishments of McGwire.

I imagine there was some similarity to the pursuit of Gehrig's iron man record.

IIRC, the stomach punch was a ritual that McGwire did after every HR, not JUST during the homerun race. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember him doing it quite often when he would come in from a HR.

Now, assuming my memory serves me correct, wouldn't that mean that this ritual to you was not a big deal? And if that's the case, why would another team's ritual (one that just happens to be a rival that you dislike) cause you that much annoyance? If it was such a minor thing when your team did it, so much so that you forgot, why get all up in arms when a rival does it?

Of course my last paragraph is intended solely under the basis that this WAS regular thing which I think it was but sometimes my memory remains fuzzy so I'm leaving it up to interpretation just in case.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm 62 years old and I watch very little popular TV. I'm not going to study up and keep my slang up to date just to impress you or anyone else. If you have a problem with that, then you're addressing the wrong person.

I really was joking around, but that Monty Burns post was the icing on a You Doggone Whippersnappers Get Off My Yard thread.

[beaner]

Why? I didn't even remember it until you reminded me, and I still don't recall the circumstances, except for when McGwire and Sammy Sosa celebrated together the time that Mark broke the Maris record. I definitely wasn't enthralled by the interruption of the game to stage a "buddy-buddy moment" with Sosa, but that's about all that I can recall about my feelings that year regarding the carrying on. I can tell you that I was somewhat caught up in the excitement of the home run race, along with virtually all of my fellow Cardinals fans. The dissenters didn't really show up much until the next year or two.

There are Cardinals fans who remain deeply critical of the distraction of the great home run race in 1998, when the interests of the team were subordinated to an extent by the manager and team management to the excitement of setting a new record. McGwire put a large number of rear ends in the seats that year, but the team finished 19 games behind the Astros and was never seriously in the division race after early June. I suppose that was due more to the injury to Matt Morris that season and to Alan Benes the year before, but a lot of fans still are bitter about the apparent focus of team objectives on the individual accomplishments of McGwire.

I imagine there was some similarity to the pursuit of Gehrig's iron man record.

With all due respect, it's very convenient that you don't remember McGwire doing that or Eckersley's fist pump. Again, these were rituals that most people, including me never made a big deal of, and don't misunderstand, this didn't bother me then or does it bother me now. I'm simply pointing out that the Cardinals aren't immune to personal celebrations.

The Cubs were in the race in 1998, and ended up getting the Wild Card, so they really needed those September games in St Louis, and probably didn't need that on field celebration either, but for the sake of the game, they needed to embrace that moment.

[Migrant Redbird]

With all due respect, it's very convenient that you don't remember McGwire doing that or Eckersley's fist pump.

I've never recalled that many details of ballgames I've watched, and my recollections get more vague as I get older. On other issues, I have a better than average memory, but I watch baseball games for enjoyment, not to take a quiz afterward on what the count was when Albert or Mark unloaded. This may seem weird to baseball fans who recall pitch-by-pitch details from games they attended 10-20 years ago, but I've never, ever been that kind of a fan.

The only thing which I recall annoying me regarding the McGwire-Sosa home run chase was the "buddy-buddy" stuff between the two players after McGwire hit #62. I did not think that Sosa should have come in from right field to congratulate an opposing player for hitting a home run.

I wasn't that thrilled by Mark's son being on the field for the celebration either, but it didn't bother me. I may or may not have thought something about the fist pumps at the time, but I think you can safely assume that they didn't bother me that much. As for comparisons with the antics of Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder, I'd need to watch what McGwire was doing again before I'd take a position.

The Cubs were in the race in 1998, and ended up getting the Wild Card, so they really needed those September games in St Louis, and probably didn't need that on field celebration either, but for the sake of the game, they needed to embrace that moment.

I don't mind that they stopped the game to celebrate the event, but I do believe the umpires have an obligation to the game to limit the time that play is interrupted. The opposing pitcher shouldn't have to wait longer than it would take to settle the average dispute between his manager and an umpire.

I seem to recall that the game where Cal broke the record was delayed for quite a while, but that was different. The game was halted when Cal completed the necessary number of innings to qualify for the record, and that was a delay which the opposing manager knew was coming and could schedule his pitcher's warm up tosses around.

[beaner]

I've never recalled that many details of ballgames I've watched, and my recollections get more vague as I get older. On other issues, I have a better than average memory, but I watch baseball games for enjoyment, not to take a quiz afterward on what the count was when Albert or Mark unloaded. This may seem weird to baseball fans who recall pitch-by-pitch details from games they attended 10-20 years ago, but I've never, ever been that kind of a fan.

The only thing which I recall annoying me regarding the McGwire-Sosa home run chase was the "buddy-buddy" stuff between the two players after McGwire hit #62. I did not think that Sosa should have come in from right field to congratulate an opposing player for hitting a home run.

I wasn't that thrilled by Mark's son being on the field for the celebration either, but it didn't bother me. I may or may not have thought something about the fist pumps at the time, but I think you can safely assume that they didn't bother me that much. As for comparisons with the antics of Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder, I'd need to watch what McGwire was doing again before I'd take a position.

I don't mind that they stopped the game to celebrate the event, but I do believe the umpires have an obligation to the game to limit the time that play is interrupted. The opposing pitcher shouldn't have to wait longer than it would take to settle the average dispute between his manager and an umpire.

I seem to recall that the game where Cal broke the record was delayed for quite a while, but that was different. The game was halted when Cal completed the necessary number of innings to qualify for the record, and that was a delay which the opposing manager knew was coming and could schedule his pitcher's warm up tosses around.

My basic point (and most others although I'll stop short of speaking for anyone else) is that what McGwire "did" and what Braun, Fielder..etc "did" weren't really "antics" as you call them. It was just a small celebration ritual. It doesn't bother me, and if it bothers you, that's fine, I'm not judging, I just wanted to point out that no team is immune to these celebrations. And it doesn't have anything to do with class or anything like it.

Yea, the Cal interruption was over the top, but it was expected. The Angels ended up blowing a huge lead in the West to Seattle later that month, but I don't think it had anything to do with that, but is interesting.

[TakebackOPACY]

Migrant Redbird, I watched the videos and thought, "What is he (you) talking about?!"

Just watching the videos that you posted, Braun did NOTHING wrong. It's only in the context of the other crap between the Buccos and Braun back in April that it would even occur to me to be offended by Braun's behavior. Since I wasn't aware of any of that crap until I just now researched it (a day or two after this thread was posted), I had the same initial reaction to this thread that most others have had.

• In April, Braun hit a 1st inning HR and the Pirates were upset by his showboating (I never saw it, so I can't comment).
  
• In Braun's next at bat, Karstens hit him.
  
• Karstens batted after hitting Braun, and the Brewers did not retaliate.
  
• Braun talked all sorts of stupid trash in the press.
  
• The next day (in April), the Brewers retaliated by hitting a couple batters.
  
• Through the press, Braun warned the MLB to look out for future retaliation.
  
• Two freakin' months later, the Brewers throw at Karstens. In my opinion, they got their retaliation back in April, had already passed on the opportunity to hit Karstens at that time, and should've gotten over it back then. If they are going to throw at a guy two months later, at least it was professionally done. Watching the video that MR posted of this in the original post of this thread, my first reaction was that Karstens should have just taken his base. Now knowing that it was two month old silly retaliation, I think Karstens reaction was reasonable.

[The Wedge]

I wonder if pitcher's should start throwing at the 3rd base coach. Damn dudes show them up EVERY home run with the handshake and buttslap.