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The benefits of a manager change...

NewMarketSean

By NewMarketSean
in Orioles Talk

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

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Why not? He's one of our best relievers and had a scoreless inning the inning before and the ability to pitch multiple innings with ease.

You are complaining he went with Johnson last night with a 1 run lead in the 8th inning and now you call Johnson one of our best guys? Trembley did nothing wrong last night or tonight. I had no problem going with Johnson for 2 innings tonight.

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

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You are complaining he went with Johnson last night with a 1 run lead in the 8th inning and now you call Johnson one of our best guys? Trembley did nothing wrong last night or tonight. I had no problem going with Johnson for 2 innings tonight.

I guess you saying Hedrickson is one of our better relievers? Had Berken gotten thru 7 innings last night you never would of seen Hendrickson.

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TJ Wrangler Veteran All-Star

TJ Wrangler

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You are complaining he went with Johnson last night with a 1 run lead in the 8th inning and now you call Johnson one of our best guys? Trembley did nothing wrong last night or tonight. I had no problem going with Johnson for 2 innings tonight.

I was bringing up my opinion regarding using relievers in 1 inning roles.

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TJ Wrangler Veteran All-Star

TJ Wrangler

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I guess you saying Hedrickson is one of our better relievers? Had Berken gotten thru 7 innings last night you never would of seen Hendrickson.

Your point?

I think you need to reread everything I've said if you think my issue is Johnson over Hendrickson. I've been advocating using multi-inning relievers, not not using JJ.

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

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Your point?

I think you need to reread everything I've said if you think my issue is Johnson over Hendrickson. I've been advocating using multi-inning relievers, not not using JJ.

I get that. My point is that Hendrickson never would of been brought in the 8th inning last night had Berken went 7. Hendrickson faced 2 lefties in the 7th, I don't think you let him see Butler in the 8th no matter how good he looked in the 7th inning.

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TJ Wrangler Veteran All-Star

TJ Wrangler

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I get that. My point is that Hendrickson never would of been brought in the 8th inning last night had Berken went 7. Hendrickson faced 2 lefties in the 7th, I don't think you let him see Butler in the 8th no matter how good he looked in the 7th inning.

Well Berken didn't go 7 (which I disagree with, he was more than able to pitch one more inning). Hendrickson pitched a great 7th and is one of our better relievers. In an effort to save our pen, I would have brought Hendrickson out for the 8th. My problem isn't that JJ was brought in, rather Trembley pulled Hendrickson and Berken too early, and likewise used up a reliever that didn't need to be used.

As far as Butler goes, he has no at bats vs. Hendrickson, so all you have to go on is that Hendrickson has excelled as a reliever and had a great inning the inning before. I don't think you need to pull him because of Butler, and there is no direct statistical reason to support the need.

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

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Well Berken didn't go 7 (which I disagree with, he was more than able to pitch one more inning). Hendrickson pitched a great 7th and is one of our better relievers. In an effort to save our pen, I would have brought Hendrickson out for the 8th. My problem isn't that JJ was brought in, rather Trembley pulled Hendrickson and Berken too early, and likewise used up a reliever that didn't need to be used.

As far as Butler goes, he has no at bats vs. Hendrickson, so all you have to go on is that Hendrickson has excelled as a reliever and had a great inning the inning before. I don't think you need to pull him because of Butler, and there is no direct statistical reason to support the need.

You would leave a power hitting right handed hitter in Butler,who is red hot to face a soft tossing lefty when you have Jim Johnson available and rested? I would like to meet the manager who would do that. You are not saving the pen you are creating poor matchups. Johnson hasn't been overworked. Hendrickson has pitched well because Trembley has used him wisely and hasn't put him in positions to fail. He has not one time had him face right handed hitters when we are ahead in the 8th inning. He has pitched when we are behind or against lefties. Multiple innings mean nothing if they are not effective. Being able to soak up innings in a blowout is not the same as pitching th 7th and 8th in a tight game.

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SilentJames Hangout Grand Counsel

SilentJames

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I'm not sure the occasional 2 inning appearance is enough. A guy like Hendrickson can probably go 7 innings if absolutely necessary, but realistically you'd only use him for 4 tops. Guys like Bass can go 3-4, and Baez could go 2 obviously, maybe 3. That's a lot of flexibility there.

Ultimately, this comes down to a fundamental disagreement in bullpen management. All I can really do here is say I disagree with DT, say why I disagree with DT, and say what I would do differently.

With the right relievers, proper management, and a 5 man rotation, I'd say you could break camp with 10 or 11 pitchers. I'd like to see a manager with the guts to do something like this, but I acknowledge that it isn't likely to happen. Which leads me back to the fundamental disagreement I currently have.

Yeah but your disagreement with Trembley is a disagreement with virtually all of baseball. And that is fine, but you would most likely be disappointed with his replacement as well.

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TJ Wrangler Veteran All-Star

TJ Wrangler

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You would leave a power hitting right handed hitter in Butler,who is red hot to face a soft tossing lefty when you have Jim Johnson available and rested? I would like to meet the manager who would do that. You are not saving the pen you are creating poor matchups. Johnson hasn't been overworked. Hendrickson has pitched well because Trembley has used him wisely and hasn't put him in positions to fail. He has not one time had him face right handed hitters when we are ahead in the 8th inning. He has pitched when we are behind or against lefties. Multiple innings mean nothing if they are not effective. Being able to soak up innings in a blowout is not the same as pitching th 7th and 8th in a tight game.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with bringing Johnson in. Your upcoming batters in that inning were Bloomquist, Butler, Teahan, and Callaspo. Bloomquist is a poor hitter, and Teahan is a lefty. Butler hits better against lefties but well against righties, and Callaspo is a switch hitter who's sample size shows him to hit better from the right side. Still, Hendrickson has been solid as a reliever and Johnson has been struggling as of late.

I don't think the match ups favor either pitcher in this scenario when considering all factors. You seem to care too much about having a righty throw to a righty and velocity. I just think it wasn't necessary to bring in another reliever when the one we had was doing fine and capable of going multiple innings.

That said, I would have given Berken the 7th and then went to JJ in a perfect world, but since Trembley went to his bullpen early and hooked a reliever early, I made it a point to question his bullpen management and say what I would have done differently. This isn't some hate of JJ and your match up theory shows that both pitchers are likely equally likely to succeed given recent circumstances. I'm just arguing from a different theory of bullpen management. I realize that it's not used in baseball today and you probably disagree with it, but the last thing I would do is make an uneducated move to put a player in an unlikely position to succeed because of my ignorance of their chances to succeed in that situation. Simply put, yeah my ideas are different, but there is a method to my madness.

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TJ Wrangler Veteran All-Star

TJ Wrangler

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Yeah but your disagreement with Trembley is a disagreement with virtually all of baseball. And that is fine, but you would most likely be disappointed with his replacement as well.

Lol...well that's very likely to be true. Nothing I can do about that except hope somehow baseball shifts back to stretching starters out and using relievers for multiple innings. Good debate...I enjoyed it and rep was given to you. How did you feel about the pen management tonight?

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Mackus Hangout Grand Counsel

Mackus

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BUMP

Nats are 11-11 under Riggs and have won a season high 5 in a row.

Think they could finish with a better record than the Orioles?

no I don't.

Also, I think giving the entirety or even the bulk of the credit for the Nationals good record over this stretch to the managerial change is bad science at best.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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BUMP

Nats are 11-11 under Riggs and have won a season high 5 in a row.

Think they could finish with a better record than the Orioles?

Sure, it's possible. Just like being hit by a meteor twice in the next 25 minutes is possible.

I guess your argument is now that Jim ".446 winning percentage" Riggleman is some kind of master technician who's whipped a good team into shape in a way that Manny "NMS argued the O's should pick up three seconds after he was fired by a .300 team" Acta couldn't?

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birdman57 AAA

birdman57

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Bring in Davey Johnson for the rest of the season. I think that would truly be a very wise move.

This would never happen nor should it. Does AM have any sort of history of a working relationship with Davy??? I'm all for a managerial change but at this point you let Trembley shepherd the flock home and cut bait in October. AM is going to have his man in here next year it would seem:)

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