The benefits of a manager change...

[MCL1021]

Does anybody remember how Earl Weaver's last season as manager went. For those who don't know, the Orioles finished 14-42 in the last couple of months and finished in last. Now, do you think Weaver somehow forgot how to manage that last season? Now let's look at the great Joe Torre, winner of 4 out of 5 World Series in New York. Does anybody remember he was fired by the Mets, Braves and Cardinals. Or how so many people in New York thought Steinbrenner had lost his mind when he brought Torre in? What was the difference between Weaver in the 60s-early 80s and Weaver in '86? What was the difference between Torre before he got to the Yankees and Torre after he got to New York? THE PLAYERS

Now I'm not saying the manager doesn't matter at all but his importance is wildly exaggerated by most. Fire Hargrove, fire Mazzilli, fire Perlozzo, fire Trembley, fire the next guy. It's not going to matter until they put the players on the field, period.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

Although, I do not agree with his bench use or how he uses some of the players at times, I think Trembley is fine. Let's see what happens when you give him some better players with more potential at some positions currently occupied by mediocre players.

[ledzepp8]

I'm saying there has been such a lapse in fundamentals and overall judgement and nobody has been taken to task for it. Trembley has protected all his players publicly with the exception of Pie, and what ever closed door stuff he's done just hasn't worked.

What lapses in fundamentals and overall judgment has there been since the board meltdown over a dropped pop up between Nick and Brian? VaTech is right in that this stuff is just group think. You pick things to just hammer into the ground.

[TJ Wrangler]

I disagree here. Most of the time its because the pitcher has needed almost 90+ pitches to get through the sixth.

The handfull of times Trembley might have had a quick hook are minuscule compared to the times that he has been forced to go to the pen before the sixth inning this year. That is what has killed our pen.

I can understand a hook after 6 ip and 90+ pitches if the pitcher was obviously struggling, but at the same time, you don't need to go with 1 inning relievers to get to the 9th. If you have to use an early hook, bring in a long man or something. There wasn't much reason to pull Hendrickson last night after he pulled Berken early too. Save JJ for when you're ahead. I guess I just have fundamental disagreements with bullpen use today.

[SilentJames]

Has Trembley lost the clubhouse? If you feel he has, do you have evidence to support your feeling?

If he hasn't, then he stays to the end of the season, period. People who advocate firing him now are running away from something purely for the sake of running away from something. They haven't a legitimate clue of what they want to run to (other than hypothetical guys or guys who have zero interest in this job).

Trembley--like every other manager in MLB--should be evaluated at the end of every season. If at that point, AM feels he should go, then he should go. Otherwise, this is speculation...and crap speculation at that.

Bingo. Seriously.

[Mad Mark]

You tell the players that Trembley isn't the right guy and they won't be able to hide under him any longer. Trembley was protecting his players so perhaps they need to lose that protection. Firing Trembley is like turning a page. It tells the players losing is unacceptable. Keeping Trembley tells the players that they can tank the rest of the season because there is no accountablity. If Trembley isn't being held accountable for the W's and L's down the stretch, why should any player be held accountable?

I realize that your primary mission here is to jump sharks in a tinfoil hat, but at this point you've left earth orbit and are headed straight to the crazy galaxy. You have this massive woody to "turn the page" without having the first clue--absent idle speculation it will avoid "yet another collapse"--of what happens after it's turned. But, it will "send a message" you howl...yeah, it will send the message that the front office is completely clueless and reactionary...oh, wait...that's your opinion of the front office anyway.

Sorry.

My bad.

Please, by all means bust loose and continue howling at the moon.

[NewMarketSean]

Bingo. Seriously.

I can live with that too. I know AM is a slow decision maker and he'll wait until the offseason and I am fine with that. I don't, however, expect Trembley to be back if the team finishes the season with one of their patented collapses though.

[TJ Wrangler]

yeah he was also dealing with an upper-respiratory infection for the better part of two weeks.

Roberts is the latest whipping boy. Oh and look at that, Termbley addressed the issue.

But it doesn't seem to have worked. Roberts played with little hustle last night. Maybe he doesn't respect Trembley all that much. Not saying that is definite, but obviously he hasn't listened to Trembley here.

[SilentJames]

I can understand a hook after 6 ip and 90+ pitches if the pitcher was obviously struggling, but at the same time, you don't need to go with 1 inning relievers to get to the 9th. If you have to use an early hook, bring in a long man or something. There wasn't much reason to pull Hendrickson last night after he pulled Berken early too. Save JJ for when you're ahead. I guess I just have fundamental disagreements with bullpen use today.

No, I agree with you about last night.

But my point is that things like last night were the exception - not the rule. Far more common has been the 90+ pitches through five innings that have forced DT to go to the pen.

The ineffectiveness of the starting pitchers has killed the pen more than DT having a quick hook.

[TJ Wrangler]

Bingo. Seriously.

Has Trembley lost the clubhouse? If you feel he has, do you have evidence to support your feeling?

If he hasn't, then he stays to the end of the season, period. People who advocate firing him now are running away from something purely for the sake of running away from something. They haven't a legitimate clue of what they want to run to (other than hypothetical guys or guys who have zero interest in this job).

Trembley--like every other manager in MLB--should be evaluated at the end of every season. If at that point, AM feels he should go, then he should go. Otherwise, this is speculation...and crap speculation at that.

I agree here. Now isn't the time for firing him, but at the same time, I don't think he's a good in game manager and that in itself could lose some players. Looking at the Roberts still not hustling after Trembley had a talk with him shows that Roberts might not respect what Trembley said. Like him, hate him, agree with him, or disagree with him, Trembley needs to be reevaluated at the end of this season. Now is not the time, but the need for evaluation is there.

[NewMarketSean]

No, I agree with you about last night.

But my point is that things like last night were the exception - not the rule. Far more common has been the 90+ pitches through five innings that have forced DT to go to the pen.

The ineffectiveness of the starting pitchers has killed the pen more than DT having a quick hook.

Then why pull Berken? Why pull Hendrickson?

This goes back to DT burning up the BP. Yeah he has had to deal with some crappy starts by some crappy pitchers this season but when he gets good starts from pitchers he still over manages the BP.

[SilentJames]

But it doesn't seem to have worked. Roberts played with little hustle last night. Maybe he doesn't respect Trembley all that much. Not saying that is definite, but obviously he hasn't listened to Trembley here.

Define hussle. Because if we are going to go on this he didn't completely run out that easy ground ball like Pete Rose would have stuff again. I mean I will call BS on that because Roberts isn't doing anything that any other player would do.

He went 2-6 last night with a double and a run scored.

[TJ Wrangler]

No, I agree with you about last night.

But my point is that things like last night were the exception - not the rule. Far more common has been the 90+ pitches through five innings that have forced DT to go to the pen.

The ineffectiveness of the starting pitchers has killed the pen more than DT having a quick hook.

Yeah, but my point was that using relievers for one inning at a time is another reason why the bullpen gets taxed. If a starter has to get pulled early, then let a reliever go 2, 3, or 4 innings. JJ doesn't have to pitch every 8th, and last night was just an example of why using one inning relievers may not be the best idea. He had less to work with in a crucial extra inning game and he pulled Hendrickson, who was capable of going multiple innings and threw a good inning, for Johnson who gave up the go ahead home run. Maybe Hendrickson would have gave up a run too, but there wasn't a need to waste one more guy to risk giving up that run.

[NewMarketSean]

Define hussle. Because if we are going to go on this he didn't completely run out that easy ground ball like Pete Rose would have stuff again. I mean I will call BS on that because Roberts isn't doing anything that any other player would do.

He went 2-6 last night with a double and a run scored.

You are mistaking production with hustle. I give you Albert Belle, Randy Moss, Allen Iverson. You can have all the talent in the world and still dog it.

[ledzepp8]

You're right. I said in another post that all the talk I've been doing about replacing DT is hypothetical. I am not calling for his head. I am just starting to warm up to the thought of someone else managing the team.

But, if firing DT and bringing in Jauss or someone else to finish out the season gave us a better chance to stop the collapse, I would do it for the sake of the young players.

But then we'd be getting into a chicken or the egg argument.

Alright, so we've gone 2-9 since the AS Break. What if we go 9-2 over the next 11 games? Does that mean DT is suddenly doing a different job?

[SilentJames]

Then why pull Berken? Why pull Hendrickson?

This goes back to DT burning up the BP. Yeah he has had to deal with some crappy starts by some crappy pitchers this season but when he gets good starts from pitchers he still over manages the BP.

I know Cubs fans that say the same thing about Lou Pinella. Most fans think their manager's bullpen management is bad.

At the beginning of the season the argument was: Trembley needs to learn that Sherrill is not a closer!

Trembley addressed it, stuck with his player, Sherrill has been aces since.

Maybe Trembley relies too heavily on certain bullpen arms - but a lot of managers do.

The overall question is this. If Trembley had a league average starting rotation would we still be complaining about his bullpen use?