The benefits of a manager change...

[TJ Wrangler]

Define hussle. Because if we are going to go on this he didn't completely run out that easy ground ball like Pete Rose would have stuff again. I mean I will call BS on that because Roberts isn't doing anything that any other player would do.

He went 2-6 last night with a double and a run scored.

Just looked like a complete lack of interest unless he had to run. He didn't run out ground balls and he just looked like he wasn't interested in going the extra mile in the field. That's why I contrasted him to Callaspo in my observations thread, because Callaspo looked like he wanted the ball hit his way and seemed determined to get anything hit anywhere near him. As a result, Callaspo show fire after not making plays that he didn't have any business making. Callaspo wanted to make plays out there, while Roberts only seemed interested in doing what he had to do and no more.

[ledzepp8]

I can understand a hook after 6 ip and 90+ pitches if the pitcher was obviously struggling, but at the same time, you don't need to go with 1 inning relievers to get to the 9th. If you have to use an early hook, bring in a long man or something. There wasn't much reason to pull Hendrickson last night after he pulled Berken early too. Save JJ for when you're ahead. I guess I just have fundamental disagreements with bullpen use today.

He did. JJ came in with a 3-2 lead and gave up a tying homerun.

[TJ Wrangler]

I know Cubs fans that say the same thing about Lou Pinella. Most fans think their manager's bullpen management is bad.

At the beginning of the season the argument was: Trembley needs to learn that Sherrill is not a closer!

Trembley addressed it, stuck with his player, Sherrill has been aces since.

Maybe Trembley relies too heavily on certain bullpen arms - but a lot of managers do.

The overall question is this. If Trembley had a league average starting rotation would we still be complaining about his bullpen use?

I think a lot of the Sherrill is not a closer camp came because Sherrill was used more frequently last year, and at the beginning of this year, they made him set up differently, which caused him to lose his deception and become easier to hit. Sherrill went back to his old way of throwing and has been lights out since then. You can attribute the increased workload last year to Trembley and the change in mechanics to Trembly or Kranitz. I do have to give it to DT for sticking with Sherrill, but I think it was his fault of his staff's fault that Sherrill was in that situation to begin with.

[TJ Wrangler]

He did. JJ came in with a 3-2 lead and gave up a tying homerun.

But you didn't need to pull Hendrickson, who was doing great, or Berken who was able to go another inning. My point was that JJ doesn't have to be an 8th inning guy who follows a 7th inning guy who follows a 6th inning guy or a loogy. Relievers don't have to have set roles or be just one inning guys.

[SilentJames]

But you didn't need to pull Hendrickson, who was doing great. My point was that JJ doesn't have to be an 8th inning guy who follows a 7th inning guy who follows a 6th inning guy or a loogy. Relievers don't have to have set roles or be just one inning guys.

But when you talk to our bullpen pitchers they say they really enjoy having set roles and it makes it easier to prepare yourself and maintain over the year.

[ledzepp8]

But you didn't need to pull Hendrickson, who was doing great, or Berken who was able to go another inning. My point was that JJ doesn't have to be an 8th inning guy who follows a 7th inning guy who follows a 6th inning guy or a loogy. Relievers don't have to have set roles or be just one inning guys.

Well I won't argue with any of that. But again, if he leaves Hendrickson in and he gives up the run...people would complain about not bringing in JJ. Not saying you would do so, but there would be a sizable faction that would. He's constantly in a lose lose situation.

[TJ Wrangler]

But when you talk to our bullpen pitchers they say they really enjoy having set roles and it makes it easier to prepare yourself and maintain over the year.

And yet they break down and get tired come August/September. You can set roles to give a general idea when a pitcher will be pitching, but those roles don't have to be gospel.

For example, tell Hendrickson that if Berken doesn't get past 5, you're getting us to the 8th or 9th. If you used Sherrill the night before, tell JJ to expect to pitch the last inning or two, or vice versa. When it comes to game time though, you have to manage to win games and save your bullpen from breaking down. If that means deviating from those roles sometimes, then so be it. I don't think JJ or Sherrill would complain from being told to get the team out of a jam in the 5th and working though the 7th if that's what the team needs one game.

[TJ Wrangler]

Well I won't argue with any of that. But again, if he leaves Hendrickson in and he gives up the run...people would complain about not bringing in JJ. Not saying you would do so, but there would be a sizable faction that would. He's constantly in a lose lose situation.

Well there are people who sometimes complain to complain. I agree that Trembley has one of the hardest jobs in terms of public opinion, but that shouldn't prevent him from making smart baseball moves.

[SilentJames]

And yet they break down and get tired come August/September. You can set roles to give a general idea when a pitcher will be pitching, but those roles don't have to be gospel.

For example, tell Hendrickson that if Berken doesn't get past 5, you're getting us to the 8th or 9th. If you used Sherrill the night before, tell JJ to expect to pitch the last inning or two, or vice versa. When it comes to game time though, you have to manage to win games and save your bullpen from breaking down. If that means deviating from those roles sometimes, then so be it. I don't think JJ or Sherrill would complain from being told to get the team out of a jam in the 5th and working though the 7th if that's what the team needs one game.

But is that a problem with roles? Or the fact that our rotation has been among the worst in the league the last two summers?

Frankly i think the ineffective rotation is about 75% of our problem.

[TJ Wrangler]

But is that a problem with roles? Or the fact that our rotation has been among the worst in the league the last two summers?

Frankly i think the ineffective rotation is about 75% of our problem.

Yeah, but when you have an ineffective rotation, the constant insistence on using pitchers in roles helps the break down process. Some roles are fine when you have the pitching, but you can't just throw the same guys for 1 inning at a time 80 times a year and expect them to be 100% all year. Trembley's apparent unwillingness to move out of roles to compensate for a weak rotation isn't helping the team or the relievers.

[SilentJames]

Yeah, but when you have an ineffective rotation, the constant insistence on using pitchers in roles helps the break down process. Some roles are fine when you have the pitching, but you can't just throw the same guys for 1 inning at a time 80 times a year and expect them to be 100% all year. Trembley's apparent unwillingness to move out of roles to compensate for a weak rotation isn't helping the team or the relievers.

The only pitchers that truly have defined roles right now are Johnson and Sherrill.

he has used Baez, Hendrickson et all multiple innings multiple times.

[TJ Wrangler]

The only pitchers that truly have defined roles right now are Johnson and Sherrill.

he has used Baez, Hendrickson et all multiple innings multiple times.

I'm not sure the occasional 2 inning appearance is enough. A guy like Hendrickson can probably go 7 innings if absolutely necessary, but realistically you'd only use him for 4 tops. Guys like Bass can go 3-4, and Baez could go 2 obviously, maybe 3. That's a lot of flexibility there.

Ultimately, this comes down to a fundamental disagreement in bullpen management. All I can really do here is say I disagree with DT, say why I disagree with DT, and say what I would do differently.

With the right relievers, proper management, and a 5 man rotation, I'd say you could break camp with 10 or 11 pitchers. I'd like to see a manager with the guts to do something like this, but I acknowledge that it isn't likely to happen. Which leads me back to the fundamental disagreement I currently have.

[JTrea81]

Let me pose this question. For those that want to keep Trembley, what benefit is it to the Orioles to keep him as a lame duck manager for the rest of the season? What will he provide that Dave Jauss wouldn't?

[TJ Wrangler]

Let me pose this question. For those that want to keep Trembley, what benefit is it to the Orioles to keep him as a lame duck manager for the rest of the season? What will he provide that Dave Jauss wouldn't?

Probably experience for one. That and it's fair to DT to let him finish out the year seeing as he hasn't totally lost the club house. Also, being that Jauss was picked by Trembley, I'm sure you could expect more of the same. Just seems like a useless move at this point to fire him and replace him with Jauss.

Any move should be made this offseason. It's not really a necessity right now.

[JTrea81]

Probably experience for one. That and it's fair to DT to let him finish out the year seeing as he hasn't totally lost the club house. Also, being that Jauss was picked by Trembley, I'm sure you could expect more of the same. Just seems like a useless move at this point to fire him and replace him with Jauss.

Any move should be made this offseason. It's not really a necessity right now.

Care to elaborate on the experience part? Jauss has been in the majors longer than Trembley has. And he's also been an advance scout and the director of player development for the Red Sox.

But getting away from that. What is it that Trembley will do that will help us win ballgames in the next two months, that somebody like Jauss can't?